[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Yeah, but as the proximal event, there is likely evidence of brake failure if that is indeed the case. Master cylinder wouldn't hold pressure when you stomp on the pedal. Lines or fittings would be leaking fluid. If it's enough to just let the pedal go to the floor, should be pretty obvious. Even with a totaled car, the brake system is likely still functional, except for any obviously ripped out parts in the crash. I've bled a LOT of brake systems and fluid doesn't just disappear to reappear later on. If pedal is going to the floor, brake fluid went somewhere or wasn't there to begin with.

I have personally experienced a master cylinder failure with a pedal going to the floor (many yrs ago) and it had nothing to do with brake fulid. The vid i have posted also suggests an ABS pump failure could also manifest itself with the same symptom.

[Hops]

Can someone explain the point he was making here? I don't do time trials,, what is "collision avoidance"?

By the way, this is also why, if you are being caught quickly, let the guy go. Here in this case I wasn't eating the guy up and had a few second half that was closing steadily but not massively. But last time I caught someone, in a quicker car but on a tire cool down lap, so fast over the course of my hot lap, the collision avoidance warning went nuts. I get that you were a little faster and qualifed higher, but when i start a lap with no car in sight in front and barely a speck by turn 7, by the end collision avoidance should not be freaking out into the last brake zone.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Hops

Can someone explain the point he was making here? I don't do time trials,, what is "collision avoidance"?

By the way, this is also why, if you are being caught quickly, let the guy go. Here in this case I wasn't eating the guy up and had a few second half that was closing steadily but not massively. But last time I caught someone, in a quicker car but on a tire cool down lap, so fast over the course of my hot lap, the collision avoidance warning went nuts. I get that you were a little faster and qualifed higher, but when i start a lap with no car in sight in front and barely a speck by turn 7, by the end collision avoidance should not be freaking out into the last brake zone.

I suspect he describes driving in another car as i am not aware of a Camaro having a collision avoidance system.
The latter can be a BIG issue as it may apply brakes if one catches another car say in a turn and then the system applies brakes due to proximity of another car, lack of brake application, closing rates, etc. That would of course cause an immediate and violent spin. So, any such system should be turned off completely for any track duty. The issue is that some manufacturers will not permit a complete disabling of their systems. That's why, some clubs i know will not permit such cars at their track events, unless a driver can prove a system can be completely disabled.

I think (only an assumption) that he was a bit peeved the car in front of him didnt accommodate a quick pass.
Perhaps directed at the driver he ended up colliding with.
At time trials the cars are usually spaced out to allow uninterrupted fast laps as folks compete against a clock. But, in some situations the cars can get close to each other depending on rules, driver strategies (sometimes designed to mess with a start of a fast lap of a driver behind them, etc).

[Boost Creep]

If a line leaked there would be residual fluid on the car/wreck trailing back.
If it was an internal issue in the master cylinder/ABS module the fluid would not have leaked until the wheel assembly left the vehicle. And then there would be little chance the fluid would have left evidence trailing back on the car.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by Hops

Can someone explain the point he was making here? I don't do time trials,, what is "collision avoidance"?

He was probably trying to refer to the forward collision alert option that is available on 2019+ Camaros. It does not do anything to avoid an accident besides beeping and flashing on the HUD to get the driver's attention. Idk why he didn't disable it before driving on track though.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558312

[carguy55]

Very interested in finding out what did happen since I track my car a lot, but not going to guess. It may just be one of those freak one off brake problems. Hopefully we can get the investigation results.

I vaguely remember one case a few years ago where there was a brake failure on track and it was a stock setup. There was no crash thankfully. Can't remember the specifics and can't find that info anywhere now.

The guy that got hit has said he didn't see anyone and had just started tuning into turn 10B and and then hit very hard on the passenger side.

Looking at Coby's Shields' Camaro video (he won the event) you could be doing about 90-100mph at the point you hit the brakes for turn 10B at Gingerman.. (Coby's speedo is off due to 18" wheels) and he does have power mods so probably more speed than Sam.

Coby's video coming into turn 10B is at 1:10
https://youtu.be/oC063Gr5pEs?t=71

Strange coincidence, Jackie Ding's track prep Supra also went off at this event and at the same turn, but that was overheating brake fluid he said after only 4 laps.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I have personally experienced a master cylinder failure with a pedal going to the floor (many yrs ago) and it had nothing to do with brake fulid. The vid i have posted also suggests an ABS pump failure could also manifest itself with the same symptom.

Then you'd hook up suspect MC to a functional brake system and it wouldn't hold pressure, right?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by carguy55

Very interested in finding out what did happen since I track my car a lot, but not going to guess. It may just be one of those freak one off brake problems. Hopefully we can get the investigation results.

I vaguely remember one case a few years ago where there was a brake failure on track and it was a stock setup. There was no crash thankfully. Can't remember the specifics and can't find that info anywhere now.

The guy that got hit has said he didn't see anyone and had just started tuning into turn 10B and and then hit very hard on the passenger side.

Looking at Coby's Shields' Camaro video (he won the event) you could be doing about 90-100mph at the point you hit the brakes for turn 10B at Gingerman.. (Coby's speedo is off due to 18" wheels) and he does have power mods so probably more speed than Sam.

Coby's video coming into turn 10B is at 1:10
https://youtu.be/oC063Gr5pEs?t=71

Strange coincidence, Jackie Ding's track prep Supra also went off at this event and at the same turn, but that was overheating brake fluid he said after only 4 laps.

It is all very weird and i share your interest in trying to find out what the root cause was.

Also weird that another car would lose brakes in the same corner, at the same event.

One lesson that can be drawn with zero doubt, is that many folks dont pay sufficient attention to importance of peripheral vision while on a race track. As in the guy who didn't see Sam coming on what looks like a venue with very good overall visibility.

Thanks for attaching Coby's vid. A likeable young gun who is obviously very dedicated and serious about his hobby, incl prep effort. His driving skills are superb and his pace excellent! Highly recommend his YouTube channel. One could argue that his driving style is a wee bit on an aggressive side, but he has plenty of talent to make it work for him without missing a beat!

As an aside, for anyone doubting how fast stock G3s are in capable hands, check his 1le VIR lap (he considers it a 1le track record on street tires running square 305 RE71Rs). Then check Provoste's lap on stock G3s

Anyhow, obviously i have a lot of questions, yet zero answers and won't stipulate what could have possibly happened to Sam's car. All i will say is that i am glad he is ok.

Here's a pic of his LF wheel posted by member in the unrelated BMR thread (just to add some relative detail):

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Then you'd hook up suspect MC to a functional brake system and it wouldn't hold pressure, right?

Yes. It seems that either MC or ABS failure could certainly manifest themselves in lack of pressure.

[waterman]

Following. Interested in the resolution to the issue.

I'm thankful that no one was seriously injured as a result of the aforementioned incident.

While I would not consider the OEM brake lines (flex) on 1LE sub-standard for DD use, after changing out mine and getting a closer look, I personally would not trust them in any form of HPDE or semi competitive track event, let alone wheel to wheel racing. Crimping in the OEM line was decent as was design and execution. However, expansion and subsequent potential for fatigue as well as the possibility for damage from debris in the wheel well were a definite concern for me.

A factory DOT3 fill in a track oriented car is a questionable decision in my opinion as well. Unless the thought process is to change out after break in.

FWIW, I'm very satisfied with the performance of the OEM calipers and pads. Brembo in collaboration with Chevrolet did a great job.

I've had no issues with my MC or ABS.... Power steering motor overheat in a high lat G turn can be an adventure though. Let's save that conversation for another day.

Apologies for the rant.

[BlueinTN]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Yes. It seems that either MC or ABS failure could certainly manifest themselves in lack of pressure.

Still sounds like ABS issues or failure. There plenty of youtubes out there of problems with the moduals. Older Fords there is a recall.



Sorry I triggered with the ice mode comment I use that as a term for ABS issues.


Could be as simple as air in the ABS system or incompatible fluid.


Machines fail despite the best design. I work on multi million dollar ones everyday and nothing really ever surprises me. The printing press I work on was 11 million dollars in 2003.


Just to complete the circle I didnt have an airbag or ABS car until 5 years ago. Never had any faith in them esp airbags designs which sadly I was correct on. I have had a "no throttle response" on my SRT Jeep several times,one I just missed getting rearend. The shifter "slipped" out of Park 2 or three times. I just dont have full faith in automotive designs. It is what it is.


Hope he gets it resolved and glad he came out ok.

[carguy55]

side story .... Jackie loses brakes goes off at 10B and almost starts a fire. Learns he should have a fire extinguisher in his race car the hard way. He switched to SRF, not sure what he had before.

https://youtu.be/FpkfMF_quBI?t=8

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by waterman

Following. Interested in the resolution to the issue.

I'm thankful that no one was seriously injured as a result of the aforementioned incident.

While I would not consider the OEM brake lines (flex) on 1LE sub-standard for DD use, after changing out mine and getting a closer look, I personally would not trust them in any form of HPDE or semi competitive track event, let alone wheel to wheel racing. Crimping in the OEM line was decent as was design and execution. However, expansion and subsequent potential for fatigue as well as the possibility for damage from debris in the wheel well were a definite concern for me.

A factory DOT3 fill in a track oriented car is a questionable decision in my opinion as well. Unless the thought process is to change out after break in.

FWIW, I'm very satisfied with the performance of the OEM calipers and pads. Brembo in collaboration with Chevrolet did a great job.

I've had no issues with my MC or ABS.... Power steering motor overheat in a high lat G turn can be an adventure though. Let's save that conversation for another day.

Apologies for the rant.

What type of "closer look" did you perform to come to your conclusion that you would not trust OEM lines for any track duty? Specifically, what details have you examined and how?

What volumetric expandability tests have you performed between OEM lines and aftermarket ones? And which aftermarket lines specifically?

What stress tests have you performed to lead you to conclude there is a possibility of fatigue and failure re: OEM lines?

What lines have you purchased to replace your OEM lines?

From what i understand, OEM lines are official low expansion spec with double rayon layer. New gen rayon was invented in 2012 which offers superior low expansion qualities.

I am all for more safety especially when braking systems are concerned. At the same time, i am a wee bit concerned with a possibility of some SS lines being manufactured in somebody's "garage" vs OEM facility.
That's not to suggest all of them fall into this category.

Cheers!

[carguy55]

A lesson here on checking your rear view in the braking zone

https://youtu.be/ffwMGHKS3Uc?t=20