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Old 02-18-2020, 02:50 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by oldman View Post
the kit is made to lower the ride first and foremost, I like the term slammer, you may want the term "performance"

So the DSSV is made for cup2, so they test them on stock SS tires... right got ya.
I thought they provided good information, but I guess they can't please everyone. They tested all of the kits on the stock tire for direct comparison (due to the nature of the question) and provided additional data on the lowering/handling kit with the SS 1LE wheel / tire combo. For a daily driver on street tires, the lowering/handling kit performs better than DSSV on their road course. On R compound tires, that will change.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:08 PM   #422
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Back to the Mustang, whether it is PP2 or the GT500, are these guys really pretending that these tires would be on for their cars and coffee runs etx. Heck I think my "normal" PS4P can't be driven at all with temp in the 20s or below!!! Could it be that a HUGE bunch of this perforamce would just go away with 220 wear summer tires?
I dont think a HUGE bunch of performance would go away with regular summer tires but it would definitely be noticeable.

As a novice driver I dont think my personal lap times have ever been fast enough for me to think a certain tire would greatly improve them. I need several more driver mods before I even thought about one specific 100 TW tire.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:14 PM   #423
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Inconsistent??? Ever car will have a different time depending on weather and track conditions. You just posted how you've run 12.5 to a 11.9 in your ZL1. There's not enough C8's out in the wild to determine really anything right now. Besides that its a hell of value looks , performance and amenities.
Can you read? Or are you just trying your damnedest to troll here? Go back, quote and paste my post where I wrote my times, and then tell me whether or not you can read. After that tell me if you have common sense or reading comprehension. Because you obviously either can't read well, can't understand numbers, cannot comprehend things, or something is seriously wrong with you.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:32 PM   #424
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Ford is pay to play, been that way for 50+ years. So the C8 is here and Ford's real flagship the GT is nowhere to be found, I have not a clue how many are made or sold of even if one can be purchased???? The GT500 well really it has some interesting features and what is the limit of front engine rear drive... Supra is approaching 400 HP and BMW is around 500 on the inline 6, Porsche put a real 6 in the Boxster this year too (near 400 HP). The merry go round is getting faster that's for sure.
I would say the C7s reached the limits of FE RWD as opposed to the GT500. The GT500 might be at the limits of what Frod can do with FE RWD. But they are very far behind for the price. And Frdo seems to be ducking and hiding. One minute it's "Venom kills Demons" and "Supercar killer" and next minute Frdo is packing up their toys and going home.
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um I highly doubt that BlaqWhole or anybody else here has the luxury of a closed track and many back to back runs, which only the best run being published. So please.
On the road race, the GT500 is running race alignment on tires know for their limited hero run status. So should these cars be tested with the same more streetable rubber? Dunno. I do find it a little disingenuous to put tires on the car that would be extremely limited in actually usage by Joe Average (yes I know the ZLE is in this area too).

The same complaint has been level at Numbering times, can the tire be purchased by Joe Average at his local discount tire?

GM does this too, their 1le upgrade for SS owners is tested with stock SS tires, same for their DSSV kit!$!@$!@#$. but, their slammer spring kit is tested with 1LE rims and tires... makes no sense. As we know that most guys that would go with 1le suspension upgrades would upgrade to good handling wheels and tires, more so with the DSSV crowd. On the other hand most guys that go for GM performance slammer springs... er probably are running stock SS type or category tire. I think GM was honestly afraid that a DSSV / 1le upgrade on the SS with 1LE rims and tires would perform better than the 1LE itself, so the bulliton went out, NEVER to publish a test of a fully upgraded SS with 1LE rims and tires. Slammer springs well there was no issues that it would under perform vs the 1LE (not by much BTW).

Back to the Mustang, whether it is PP2 or the GT500, are these guys really pretending that these tires would be on for their cars and coffee runs etx. Heck I think my "normal" PS4P can't be driven at all with temp in the 20s or below!!! Could it be that a HUGE bunch of this perforamce would just go away with 220 wear summer tires?

I going to assume far more GT500 are driven by posers vs people that buy a ZLE or Z/28 for that matter.
I have resources, lol!! Regardless tho, each of my Camaros have always ran consistently. My 5th Gen typically ran between 13.1 and 12.8. My ZL1 on the three separate trips went 12.3/12.1 (1st outing), then 12.2/12.0 (2nd outing), then 11.8/12.0 (3rd outing). I omitted the runs where I screwed up the launch as those were driver error and late in the evening. The problem with the GT500 seems to be from a number of different things including the weight, too much power, not enough to control that power, and the tires. Too much of a mismatch going on for it to ever be consistent. Which is why all these guys get their one hero run, post that time, and you don't hear about the other runs they did for the entire day they were out at the track.

To me it is ok if people are posers. Nobody says that these cars HAVE to be taken to the track. These cars are very expensive. And with Frdo not being exactly forthcoming about what they will and won't cover, I wouldn't want to risk blowing up a $94K wannabee soopercar killer chasing some falsely advertised hero time that you might be able to do once and never again. It is clear from how these cars come equipped that Frdo is not building them well enough that I'd be confident in their durability. I would probably go once and call it a day.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:32 PM   #425
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I thought they provided good information, but I guess they can't please everyone. They tested all of the kits on the stock tire for direct comparison (due to the nature of the question) and provided additional data on the lowering/handling kit with the SS 1LE wheel / tire combo. For a daily driver on street tires, the lowering/handling kit performs better than DSSV on their road course. On R compound tires, that will change.
One would argue even on cup2 the DSSV damper and associated spring is too firm.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:27 PM   #426
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Sorry it was a 13.5 not 12.5 lol.... my point is it’s not necessarily the cars that are inconsistent but the drivers. It happens, especially when your dealing with power levels of the zl1 and gt500.


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Back in my 5th Gen days I was running low 13s to high 12s. There was a guy in a 5th Gen ZL1 running 13.3s and couldn't get better than that. But he was new. I talked to him and told him to go out and get some more seat time. Same with the 6th Gen ZL1s. A little seat time and nothing else is all that is needed. My first time out in my 17 ZL1 my goal was 12.4...the car had just finished break in and I wanted to go easy on her and kinda get to know the feel of the car. I did 12.3 and 12.1. It was getting late by the third run and it was cool out and I was tired and aggravated. So my thrid run I messed up the launch and did a 13.5. My second time out the goal was 12.2. Even tho it was slower than the 12.1 I had already done I still just wanted to get more feel of the car and try different launch methods. I did a 12.2 and a 12 flat that night. Again, by the third run it was after 9pm and the track was a bit too cold and I was tired. That run was a 12.7. My third time out the goal was to do a 12 flat again. My first run that night was 11.8 and the second was 12 flat. Each of these runs were on stock tires at 32 psi with no launching, none of the race modes, no paddles. It was in D and I just let the car do all the work. To keep perspective, there were Hellcats on a tire running from 10.7 to 11 flat on those nights. A supercharged Roush GT was running 11.5s on a tire. My buddy has a supercharged 16 SS and he was in the low 11s as well. So it might have been that those guys at your track just needed more seat time or something. I don't think one night is enough to gauge how they did. You'd have to see how they did on subsequent nights to see if they improved or what. But basically my point is that it isn't difficult to do 11s in a 6th Gen ZL1. I figure most average guys should be between 11.4 and 11.8 while some of the better guys would be low 11s and high 10s. And it shouldn't take more than a few tries. I certainly am no racing expert and I got 11.8. If I can do it then anyone can.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:30 PM   #427
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Easy big boy .... I was wrong you went from 13.5 to 11.8 my bad.

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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
Can you read? Or are you just trying your damnedest to troll here? Go back, quote and paste my post where I wrote my times, and then tell me whether or not you can read. After that tell me if you have common sense or reading comprehension. Because you obviously either can't read well, can't understand numbers, cannot comprehend things, or something is seriously wrong with you.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:58 PM   #428
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Sorry it was a 13.5 not 12.5 lol.... my point is it’s not necessarily the cars that are inconsistent but the drivers. It happens, especially when your dealing with power levels of the zl1 and gt500.
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Easy big boy .... I was wrong you went from 13.5 to 11.8 my bad.

Not worth a reply.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:23 PM   #429
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haha total opposite for me. Grew up around GM

as far as new cars, Dad had Cadillac's when I was really young. Then switched to Oldsmobile (he was always an olds guy at heart) then had a few chevy trucks(mom had a tahoe, and a suburban). As far as the classic cars my family had when I was growing up all GM. I don't even know if I can remember all of them but the list looks a little something like this

71 El Camino SS
Three different 56 Chevy 210's
Three Different 66 Olds 442's
66 Nova Drag Car
67 Nova SS
66 Olds Model 98

Those are the ones that stand out, there were others sprinkled in at times. Dad never had anything against Ford, just preferred GM. Had a few bad experiences with the chevy trucks and chevy dealer so he switched to Ford and was blown away by how much better the F-350 was then his 3500 Silverado. Got into a great relationship with the local Ford dealer and pretty much ever since then when they needed a new vehicle they looked at ford first.
For trucks I'll say that Ford would be my go to. At least they were. I think the Ram 1500 looks better than the Silverado and the F150. But I would probably go with a Silverado if I were to get a truck.
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GM does this too, their 1le upgrade for SS owners is tested with stock SS tires, same for their DSSV kit!$!@$!@#$. but, their slammer spring kit is tested with 1LE rims and tires... makes no sense. As we know that most guys that would go with 1le suspension upgrades would upgrade to good handling wheels and tires, more so with the DSSV crowd. On the other hand most guys that go for GM performance slammer springs... er probably are running stock SS type or category tire. I think GM was honestly afraid that a DSSV / 1le upgrade on the SS with 1LE rims and tires would perform better than the 1LE itself, so the bulliton went out, NEVER to publish a test of a fully upgraded SS with 1LE rims and tires. Slammer springs well there was no issues that it would under perform vs the 1LE (not by much BTW).
Is that not a 1LE right there? What would be the difference?
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Originally Posted by oldman View Post
Back to the Mustang, whether it is PP2 or the GT500, are these guys really pretending that these tires would be on for their cars and coffee runs etx. Heck I think my "normal" PS4P can't be driven at all with temp in the 20s or below!!! Could it be that a HUGE bunch of this perforamce would just go away with 220 wear summer tires?

I going to assume far more GT500 are driven by posers vs people that buy a ZLE or Z/28 for that matter.
I think the tire that comes on the standard ZL1 is about as much tire that you can use on the street under "normal" DD use. Even then you have to be careful under 40 degrees. I've certainly driven my ZL1 well below 40 degrees. A couple times in the single digits. And it held up fine although I certainly wasn't banging corners or driving in any type of spirited manner. If I was to buy any car with a tire as aggressive as those Cup2s I would probably swap them out for something more practical and well rounded. Probably the rims too for that matter. But going back to the price of this car and Frdo's warranty semantics, I doubt we'll see many of these cars at the track. The CF versions that it. I bet most will be used to cruise around in and show off. Maybe some of the guys out there with YT channels looking to make a name will do it. But outside of that I don't think many will. Even with the YT crowd they'd have to be careful about what they post and what videos they put up as Frdo will likely use it against them to get out of paying up when something inevitably blows the hell up.
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Old 02-18-2020, 09:26 PM   #430
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Is that not a 1LE right there? What would be the difference?
I goes further than that, a workable DSSV damper upgrade would allow all existing 1SS and 1LT, as well as future base models to upgrade to a superior damper. It would also undercut the reason 3 plus years of people that have already ordered MRC (not a cheap option) and I don't think one can order that on a 1ss or 1lt.

Sure GM sells packages and makes money on them, even though GM is giving probably the best value per package, and the best overall design: SS, 1le, Zl1, ZLE, they like any other OEM makes the most money on packages (vs the car itself). When the 1le was released the DSSV dampers were still not out, at least to the public. The 1le was designed with an inferior damper and no castor/camber plates. Good enough for sure, but if GM was to release an over-the-counter 1LE suspension package for the SS with a DSSV damper configuration, it may well cut into the 1le orders and may well be faster on the road course. Even now there are people are forking over close to a grand to get rid of MRC and go with an aftermarket damper, I would assume the DSSV would be a good choice.

To my mind, if GM Performance was a totally separate company they would have tested (and published) the over-the-counter ZLE suspension with both the ZLE wheels and the 1lE wheels. I merely speculate that they indeed did said combinations and performance was on par with a true 1le, so GM never released the figures. It would cut into 1le and / or 2ss MRC sales, as well as let people with 1SS keep their rides. Giving the buying public a cheaper alternatives to more expensive packages is not the way to make money, when you are the sole provider of either. Pure speculation of course, but as Occams Razor always holds true, why would GM blot the DSSV + 1le suspension to a SS and release data on it with stock SS wheels? It is has already stated that such data is completely meaningless. Obviously GM wants to sell over-the-counter performance parts so they did indeed test the performance lowering spring packages, 1le kit with 1le wheels which MAKES sense. So either GMs engineers and access to the OEM parts bin and the track and expert drivers led to a workable DSSV package or GM waisted a lot of time and IQ points. I think GM knows exactly how a 1SS will perform given unlimited access to GM's parts bin.



The lowering springs package with the 1LE bars and wheels cuts nearly 6 seconds off the the SS's time (still 2 seconds slower than the 1LE pace). It is not hard to assume a proper height performace spring and DSSV dampers along with the related caster / camber plates would put an upgraded 1SS right into direct competition with the 1LE.


I would not be surprised to see a lightweight 1SS with 1le suspension, DSSV, EDiff and 6 pot front brakes on ZLE wheels. GM would find some aniversery or lunar cycle to name it after. BTW I did like the C8 launch and how the Vette related to astronauts well done.

I would not have ordered MRC anyway, that said, I had a feeling that the DSSV was just a plain better damper and the castor / camber plates was additional cream filling....
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Old 02-18-2020, 09:48 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I think the tire that comes on the standard ZL1 is about as much tire that you can use on the street under "normal" DD use. Even then you have to be careful under 40 degrees. I've certainly driven my ZL1 well below 40 degrees. A couple times in the single digits. And it held up fine although I certainly wasn't banging corners or driving in any type of spirited manner.
Probably reflective of most ZL1 owners


I
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
f I was to buy any car with a tire as aggressive as those Cup2s I would probably swap them out for something more practical and well rounded. Probably the rims too for that matter.
Yep, so even the die-hards would not drive Cup2 on the street So these really race tires and in many ways not relevant to streetcars, as most normal (anybody with common sense and not made of money) drivers are not on the public roadway with Cup2s. Hence I wish that these performace test be done with 220 minimum wear summer tires.


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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
But going back to the price of this car and Frdo's warranty semantics, I doubt we'll see many of these cars at the track. The CF versions that it. I bet most will be used to cruise around in and show off. Maybe some of the guys out there with YT channels looking to make a name will do it. But outside of that I don't think many will. Even with the YT crowd they'd have to be careful about what they post and what videos they put up as Frdo will likely use it against them to get out of paying up when something inevitably blows the hell up.
That would be my view also.
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:20 AM   #432
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I goes further than that, a workable DSSV damper upgrade would allow all existing 1SS and 1LT, as well as future base models to upgrade to a superior damper. It would also undercut the reason 3 plus years of people that have already ordered MRC (not a cheap option) and I don't think one can order that on a 1ss or 1lt.

Sure GM sells packages and makes money on them, even though GM is giving probably the best value per package, and the best overall design: SS, 1le, Zl1, ZLE, they like any other OEM makes the most money on packages (vs the car itself). When the 1le was released the DSSV dampers were still not out, at least to the public. The 1le was designed with an inferior damper and no castor/camber plates. Good enough for sure, but if GM was to release an over-the-counter 1LE suspension package for the SS with a DSSV damper configuration, it may well cut into the 1le orders and may well be faster on the road course. Even now there are people are forking over close to a grand to get rid of MRC and go with an aftermarket damper, I would assume the DSSV would be a good choice.

To my mind, if GM Performance was a totally separate company they would have tested (and published) the over-the-counter ZLE suspension with both the ZLE wheels and the 1lE wheels. I merely speculate that they indeed did said combinations and performance was on par with a true 1le, so GM never released the figures. It would cut into 1le and / or 2ss MRC sales, as well as let people with 1SS keep their rides. Giving the buying public a cheaper alternatives to more expensive packages is not the way to make money, when you are the sole provider of either. Pure speculation of course, but as Occams Razor always holds true, why would GM blot the DSSV + 1le suspension to a SS and release data on it with stock SS wheels? It is has already stated that such data is completely meaningless. Obviously GM wants to sell over-the-counter performance parts so they did indeed test the performance lowering spring packages, 1le kit with 1le wheels which MAKES sense. So either GMs engineers and access to the OEM parts bin and the track and expert drivers led to a workable DSSV package or GM waisted a lot of time and IQ points. I think GM knows exactly how a 1SS will perform given unlimited access to GM's parts bin.



The lowering springs package with the 1LE bars and wheels cuts nearly 6 seconds off the the SS's time (still 2 seconds slower than the 1LE pace). It is not hard to assume a proper height performace spring and DSSV dampers along with the related caster / camber plates would put an upgraded 1SS right into direct competition with the 1LE.


I would not be surprised to see a lightweight 1SS with 1le suspension, DSSV, EDiff and 6 pot front brakes on ZLE wheels. GM would find some aniversery or lunar cycle to name it after. BTW I did like the C8 launch and how the Vette related to astronauts well done.

I would not have ordered MRC anyway, that said, I had a feeling that the DSSV was just a plain better damper and the castor / camber plates was additional cream filling....
So perhaps MRC was just a bit more fancy schmancy. I personally like MRC for DD street driving with aggressive performance. But I'm guessing it would not be the first preference for those who want more.
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Yep, so even the die-hards would not drive Cup2 on the street So these really race tires and in many ways not relevant to streetcars, as most normal (anybody with common sense and not made of money) drivers are not on the public roadway with Cup2s. Hence I wish that these performace test be done with 220 minimum wear summer tires.
They're not the most friendly tire...money-wise and for DD use. And they definitely do not last long. Not on something as heavy as the GT500 apparently. It's an expensive one lap setup where a great driver can do a great lap but only once. So for the tires alone that is a $1600+ lap. That doesn't even include other costs. And when something blows up you're stuck with the bill. Meanwhile other cheaper cars are running more than 1 hero lap. No thank you. If that car wasn't as mismatched and thrown together as it was then maybe it would be a different story.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:11 AM   #433
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Will someone organize this thread in to chapters and sections? I've lost my place and don't want to reread the whole book.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:15 AM   #434
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Inconsistent??? Ever car will have a different time depending on weather and track conditions. You just posted how you've run 12.5 to a 11.9 in your ZL1. There's not enough C8's out in the wild to determine really anything right now. Besides that its a hell of value looks , performance and amenities.
I agree with the bulk of your point, but a v8 test car the TFL guys just had ran a 3.3 0 to 60 with a passanger on a regular road surface somewhere in the desert while cruising around. This was a non z51 car and it seemed like they maybe didn't even use LC. I think its a safe bet that the c8 will be pretty consistent in acceleration. As for reliability and all of that, obviously remains to be seen, but I can't imagine the lt2 will give many issues.
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