Hands Free/Self Driving Cars

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CamaroFred

Intuition/Premonition: More than once I have had a bad feeling and altered my driving style. Sometimes it turns out to be nothing, but more than once it has saved me from getting into trouble.

One example from ~45 years ago that saved my life:
One night I was traveling east on a 2-lane road that paralleled a RR track that ran on an embankment to cross a bridge. The road I was on took a sharp right turn to go under the bridge.

As I approached the bridge I had a feeling (intuition) that something was going to happen. I slowed to a crawl as I got close to the turn.

A car traveling north came from under the bridge and was going so fast (or thought he was) he had cut the corner and was completely on my side of the road.

I came to a stop. The look of terror on his face is unforgettable.
If I had been any closer or going any faster he would have hit me head-on.



And that is why all the traffic signals, around this area, at least, wait a few seconds after changing one direction red before turning the cross traffic green.
Although I think that is counter-productive and actually encourages some drivers to speed up when the signal changes yellow.

Would the V2V have the ability to pick up a vehicle coming from under the bridge, around a 90° bend as I described above? It wasn't visible. Radio waves would have had to pass through a concrete and steel bridge and a steep embankment built with enough rock to hold a train.

It couldn't have a premonition, we know that.

Oddly specific...an AV with V2V would pick it up before a human would.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Oddly specific...an AV with V2V would pick it up before a human would.

I remember reading about V2V several years ago. It was something that GM apparently was working on, probably in it's infancy at that time.

My question is this, does it only read info from cars also equipped with V2V?

[SinginHawk]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

I remember reading about V2V several years ago. It was something that GM apparently was working on, probably in it's infancy at that time.

My question is this, does it only read info from cars also equipped with V2V?

That's the work that my Master's will be focused on, the ability for autonomous vehicles to use information provided by their neighbors rather than relying solely upon their own sensors.

It's very possible and only requires that a fair percentage of vehicles on the road are equipped with similar technology. It is likely that these sensors will be employed in vehicles that don't even have automation options, simply because the information is so valuable to a vehicle that is attempting to drive itself.

[anth331]

When I was a kid in the 60's Everybody said by the year 2000 that flying cars would be the norm and fossil fueled cars would be a thing of the past. Hopefully I'll be gone before hands free cars are the norm.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

My question is this, does it only read info from cars also equipped with V2V?

Originally Posted by SinginHawk

That's the work that my Master's will be focused on, the ability for autonomous vehicles to use information provided by their neighbors rather than relying solely upon their own sensors.

It's very possible and only requires that a fair percentage of vehicles on the road are equipped with similar technology. It is likely that these sensors will be employed in vehicles that don't even have automation options, simply because the information is so valuable to a vehicle that is attempting to drive itself.

^^^ What he said.

I should also note that any vehicle with OnStar is capable of feeding info to other V2V equipped vehicles. There is also V2I communication that allows the vehicle to gather information from infrastructure. How long before the light changes, emergency vehicles that are approaching the AV’s field of operation.

V2V will also pick up things other vehicles experience. For example, if a vehicle further ahead on the AV’s path has its traction control engage, the AV will get the signal and interpret that there may be slippery pavement ahead and prepare for that.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SinginHawk

That's the work that my Master's will be focused on, the ability for autonomous vehicles to use information provided by their neighbors rather than relying solely upon their own sensors.

It's very possible and only requires that a fair percentage of vehicles on the road are equipped with similar technology. It is likely that these sensors will be employed in vehicles that don't even have automation options, simply because the information is so valuable to a vehicle that is attempting to drive itself.

Aren't there some privacy concerns involved here? How would the use of V2V for speed enforcement fit within established legal opinions regarding due process and unreasonable search/seizure?

Never mind the possibility that driving on a shorter-than-OE tires (for any reason) would probably broadcast an artificially high speed.

The AV responding to V2V information the human-driven car on the far side of the semi has to be making some assumptions about its likelihood of blowing clear through its red light. How long would it wait if the human driver throws out the anchor at the last possible moment and tries to stop in time? Is it still going to consider the possibility that the human driver might decide he's not going to get stopped in time and would jump on the gas again? What's the AV going to do?

Might be a bad time to be near 53' metal-box trailers.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

So what happens to the rest of us when autonomous cars are hacked and become lethal missiles?

Hacking doesn't concern me anywhere near as much as things like cloud server loss of power, in-car computer problems, and sensors going inop. Never mind how well (or not) these systems will tolerate owner-added devices. OBDII has been around for over 20 years, and it still doesn't like everything that people plug into the diagnostic port.


Norm

[frostys]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Aren't there some privacy concerns involved here? How would the use of V2V for speed enforcement fit within established legal opinions regarding due process and unreasonable search/seizure?

Beside following the speed limits protecting you from stuff like that, it probably will depend from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in what has been made into law as a correct way for cops to get data on your driving of the driving of nearby cars.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Never mind the possibility that driving on a shorter-than-OE tires (for any reason) would probably broadcast an artificially high speed.

Your speed is more likely to be tracked via GPS once you get on the V2V data web to deal with that since GPS tracking will be required for the data to be relevant. On the other hand, the computer-driven cars will probably come with strong warning that stuff like wheels swap should be followed by re-calibration of systems to ensure the car does not get wrong readings. How costly this will be to get done is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The AV responding to V2V information the human-driven car on the far side of the semi has to be making some assumptions about its likelihood of blowing clear through its red light. How long would it wait if the human driver throws out the anchor at the last possible moment and tries to stop in time? Is it still going to consider the possibility that the human driver might decide he's not going to get stopped in time and would jump on the gas again? What's the AV going to do?

Norm

In such condition, humans use eye-ball MK.I to spot and their brain to analyse what they see. The AV will use it's array of detection device for the spotting and the computer for the analysis. The trade off will be the human having "gut feelings" to help or hinder because sometime we get the wrong intuition while the computer will be based on hard math. The crossing car is still above speed X at Y meters from the intersection? Then don't go. Now we can all just hope they go with somewhat conservative settings to reduce the cases where a car "passed" the distance/speed check but still blew through it.

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Aren't there some privacy concerns involved here? How would the use of V2V for speed enforcement fit within established legal opinions regarding due process and unreasonable search/seizure?

Never mind the possibility that driving on a shorter-than-OE tires (for any reason) would probably broadcast an artificially high speed.


Norm

Have no fear, the government will make us all safer from each other by electronically fining your license (account) every time you exceed the allowed speeds.


Doesn’t that make everyone feel better now?

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by SinginHawk

That's the work that my Master's will be focused on, the ability for autonomous vehicles to use information provided by their neighbors rather than relying solely upon their own sensors.

It's very possible and only requires that a fair percentage of vehicles on the road are equipped with similar technology. It is likely that these sensors will be employed in vehicles that don't even have automation options, simply because the information is so valuable to a vehicle that is attempting to drive itself.

So, the short answer is no, they cannot communicate with non equipped cars. Although, as Martin pointed out, programs like OnStar, and I imagine some of the infotainment systems that have diagnostic capabilities can be a back door.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Aren't there some privacy concerns involved here? How would the use of V2V for speed enforcement fit within established legal opinions regarding due process and unreasonable search/seizure?

Never mind the possibility that driving on a shorter-than-OE tires (for any reason) would probably broadcast an artificially high speed.

The AV responding to V2V information the human-driven car on the far side of the semi has to be making some assumptions about its likelihood of blowing clear through its red light. How long would it wait if the human driver throws out the anchor at the last possible moment and tries to stop in time? Is it still going to consider the possibility that the human driver might decide he's not going to get stopped in time and would jump on the gas again? What's the AV going to do?

Might be a bad time to be near 53' metal-box trailers.


Norm

There is never a good time to be around a box truck, lol.

There are two things that is going to greatly influence this technology, public opinion (market) and legislation. In terms of public opinion, this may be a technology that manufacturers may offer as a option, as are many of the monitoring systems on cars today. The consumer chooses them for the most part.

Legislation will come into play if there are enough of these things out there that t is seen as a larger public safety issue. Then, as with air bags and ABS, we may see this technology mandated. If that is the case, then topics of how and by whom the information is used will have to be discussed.

As it sits, I imagine that it is set up that the computers are talking to each other. It isn't like a L.E.O. is going to get a read out of what you're doing and have the ability to give you a ticket for speeding yesterday. Now, gathering this information after a citation has been issued as evidence against you is another story. Again, that will be decided in legislature and/or the courts.

The V2I is another hurdle. This will require transponders added to all stop lights at the very least. This would come at a great expense to many municipalities. Not only for the transponder itself, but the training an maintenance of these systems. The good thing is that these could also feed information about the speed limit on the road, school zones, possibly even road work, and traffic flow. But then again, this would require someone to upload the info to them and keep the info up to date. Another expense to the city, and thus a legislation concern.

As far as system failure, it seems that there are enough different systems going on that the AV is never "driving blind". However, what about the case of mechanical failure? For example, you have an AV, and as in a scenario the Martin put out earlier in this thread, it drops you off at work and them goes back home to take the young kids to school. So, the kids are in the back seat, cars is driving them to school, and the car breaks down. There they are, young kids, no adults, stranded, hopefully on the side of the road and not the middle, now what?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Aren't there some privacy concerns involved here? How would the use of V2V for speed enforcement fit within established legal opinions regarding due process and unreasonable search/seizure?

No more so than already exist. Your car already has the automotive equivalent of a black box that in the course of accident investigation can provide info on how fast and in what direction your vehicle was going, which systems (ABS, panic braking, traction control) were engaged at time of impact. Last I heard, government agencies weren’t going out requesting warrants to obtain this info from John Q. Public’s vehicles for questionable purposes.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Never mind the possibility that driving on a shorter-than-OE tires (for any reason) would probably broadcast an artificially high speed.

On one hand, I see your point here. Relying simply on what the vehicle’s “self reported” information is could have error when the vehicle is physically changed. On the other hand, most projects I’ve seen, maybe all, do not rely totally on one system input. V2V would be an input, as would lidar and radar and cameras and sensors. Fusing the multiple inputs to define the most likely / most consistent condition would mitigate simple differences like speed discrepancies due to tire size.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The AV responding to V2V information the human-driven car on the far side of the semi has to be making some assumptions about its likelihood of blowing clear through its red light. How long would it wait if the human driver throws out the anchor at the last possible moment and tries to stop in time? Is it still going to consider the possibility that the human driver might decide he's not going to get stopped in time and would jump on the gas again? What's the AV going to do?

Might be a bad time to be near 53' metal-box trailers.


Norm

The AV would no doubt take a totally analytical approach to the situation. It would project where the vehicle will be given its current position and velocity and would recalculate those projections several times per second. The AV would plan reaction to avoid colliding with the unseen car. If the car stood on its brakes and stopped the AV would proceed. If the car stood on the accelerator, the AV would wait until the car passed the intersection, then proceed when safe.

[Martinjlm]

This TEDtalk by Chris Urmson of Google (now Waymo) does an excellent job of describing how the technology works. It is about 15 minutes long, but well worth the time. At about 7 minutes he starts showing real situations that some of the Google cars have experienced. They show on the bottom of the screen what a driver would see and on the top of the screen what the car is seeing/sensing. Provides a more illustrative view of what I was trying to demonstrate with my “car blowing past a truck through a red light” scenario. In fact, there was a real occurrence, captured at about the 12:00 mark, where a bicyclist blows through a red light. Two human driven vehicles almost hit him. The AV sat still until he passed.

https://youtu.be/tiwVMrTLUWg

[Royal Tiger]

This happens every time it rains or snows. Makes me feel oh so safe for the future:

[Royal Tiger]

Sorry it’s blurry. Basically it says the radar is obstructed. I can see from slush, but rain??

I turn all the safety stuff like lane departure off anyway.