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Old 04-11-2018, 10:54 AM   #183
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On the other hand, there are people like Jim Hackett (who is apparently trying to re-imagine Ford as a "mobility company" ahead of the others). Which in end form sounds like anything but fun.

Closer to the individual enthusiast, there's more than a few folks who want everybody to embrace the notion of autonomous transportation. I'm aiming mostly at them.


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Old 04-11-2018, 12:34 PM   #184
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Bet you didn't see that coming


Norm
Actually, from you, yes, I expected an anecdote incident that would somewhat "prove" that technology advancing isn't completely a good thing because that one time it actually increased the risk you faced when it failed on you. Then I just think a bit and realize your point of view does not take into account all the time ABS or any other driving assistance actually helped drivers by doing it's job because it might never have happened to you (doubtful but vOv).

The funniest part about this is that even if you happen to be a perfect diver who never make mistakes and always pay 100% attention, those driving aids will end up helping you because once in a while, it will help prevent a careless driver from crashing into you.
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Old 04-11-2018, 02:41 PM   #185
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Actually, from you, yes, I expected an anecdote incident that would somewhat "prove" that technology advancing isn't completely a good thing because that one time it actually increased the risk you faced when it failed on you. Then I just think a bit and realize your point of view does not take into account all the time ABS or any other driving assistance actually helped drivers by doing it's job because it might never have happened to you (doubtful but vOv).

The funniest part about this is that even if you happen to be a perfect diver who never make mistakes and always pay 100% attention, those driving aids will end up helping you because once in a while, it will help prevent a careless driver from crashing into you.
Well, it was a true story with the documentation to prove it . . . but you're mistaking my intent. What I am saying was that the situation was well within what I can cope with even in the absence of technological help. The following lap time was slightly slower, mainly because I threw away the downshift I'd have normally made and ran a gear too high for about the next quarter of a lap.

I know if I counted up all the number of times I ever put a car into its ABS on my fingers that I'd have as many left over as I'd used (I'm not counting any intentional ABS events encountered while hooning around in the snow or investigating what ABS activity might feel like). This covers a little over 17 years at this point, and even includes my track time.

Of course I can't fix momentary shortcomings in other drivers, so yeah, it's possible that I might some day avoid the consequences of a mistake on their part that was mitigated through ABS, Stabilitrak, or some other technological assistance. But what's more likely is another driver making a serious right-of-way error in a scenario that would be beyond the laws of physics to avoid or otherwise prevent.


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Old 04-12-2018, 12:59 PM   #186
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Well, it was a true story with the documentation to prove it . . . but you're mistaking my intent. What I am saying was that the situation was well within what I can cope with even in the absence of technological help. The following lap time was slightly slower, mainly because I threw away the downshift I'd have normally made and ran a gear too high for about the next quarter of a lap.

I know if I counted up all the number of times I ever put a car into its ABS on my fingers that I'd have as many left over as I'd used (I'm not counting any intentional ABS events encountered while hooning around in the snow or investigating what ABS activity might feel like). This covers a little over 17 years at this point, and even includes my track time.

Of course I can't fix momentary shortcomings in other drivers, so yeah, it's possible that I might some day avoid the consequences of a mistake on their part that was mitigated through ABS, Stabilitrak, or some other technological assistance. But what's more likely is another driver making a serious right-of-way error in a scenario that would be beyond the laws of physics to avoid or otherwise prevent.


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So basically, with all that, is that it's possible there are drivers inferior to you whose lives could be saved with this technology, but maybe we should really rethink this progress thing because you're good as is.
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:35 PM   #187
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So basically, with all that, is that it's possible there are drivers inferior to you whose lives could be saved with this technology, but maybe we should really rethink this progress thing because you're good as is.
No, he's saying that these systems do not work as intended.

He understands their intention, but denies their effectiveness.
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But what's more likely is another driver making a serious right-of-way error in a scenario that would be beyond the laws of physics to avoid or otherwise prevent.(in this scenario the systems would not be able to prevent a collision anyways)

His denial is very persistent though, especially when he'd rather reference track times than saved lives minus his own. Norm is also under the impression that driver assistance features have done him little good to date.
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Of course I can't fix momentary shortcomings in other drivers, so yeah, it's possible that I might some day avoid the consequences of a mistake on their part that was mitigated through ABS, Stabilitrak, or some other technological assistance.(again, the implications here include that Norm does not have momentary shortcomings. I'm curious about how often Norm is under this impression in other areas of his life, which may be why he is hesitant to concede good points when they are made for the opposition of his view.)
We all have shortcomings, momentary or otherwise. In my opinion, a compromised track time is a worthy sacrifice for the greater good of securing all people during their "momentary shortcomings".

Of course you are allowed your opinion even if it suggests that track times are more important than covering lapses in awareness/judgement, but it would inform whether or not I take your position seriously when it comes to public well-being.

You are also allowed to have a dedicated track car that has no cumbersome safety features to bog down your driving capabilities.
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Old 04-12-2018, 02:39 PM   #188
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No, he's saying that these systems do not work as intended.

He understands their intention, but denies their effectiveness.


His denial is very persistent though, especially when he'd rather reference track times than saved lives minus his own. Norm is also under the impression that driver assistance features have done him little good to date. We all have shortcomings, momentary or otherwise. In my opinion, a compromised track time is a worthy sacrifice for the greater good of securing all people during their "momentary shortcomings".

Of course you are allowed your opinion even if it suggests that track times are more important than covering lapses in awareness/judgement, but it would inform whether or not I take your position seriously when it comes to public well-being.
I mean, by that logic, the automatic double clutch 7 speed transmissions are of no benefit vs a 1970 3 on the tree manual...

But, I will say, as a manual driver, I do NOT like flappy paddle or shiftronic gearboxes. For the average driver, they are fine. But for someone who understands a manual transmission and understands the benefits of going from 5th to 2nd to slow down hard without sliding from overbraking, these transmissions are dangerous to me. If I put it in 2nd, I want it in ****ing 2nd.
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:49 PM   #189
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Norm is also under the impression that driver assistance features have done him little good to date.
That is, in fact, true. Whether you care to believe it or not.

When there is nothing to report where any of these technologies have done me any good when I had any of them available, that is the only conclusion that can come out of it.

There haven't even been any situations before they were available to me where they might have helped, not even a couple I can think of from over 40 and over 50 years ago respectively where getting into the situation in the first place was entirely on me and I knew it as the situations were developing.


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We all have shortcomings, momentary or otherwise.
I am aware of that. Something could happen tonight (going out to eat). But as long as I do my part I won't be needing my '08's ABS or wishing I had my wife's car and its stability control.


Quote:
Of course you are allowed your opinion even if it suggests that track times are more important than covering lapses in awareness/judgement, but it would inform whether or not I take your position seriously when it comes to public well-being.

You are also allowed to have a dedicated track car that has no cumbersome safety features to bog down your driving capabilities.
Track episodes are what I have to illustrate that situations that these technologies are supposed to unburden the driver from can in fact be handled by an unaided driver (I have video documentation of catching tailhappiness in the wet and through spilled coolant as well).

You really need to know that I just don't get into such situations on the street, though I did once manage to needlessly trigger the stability control on my wife's car (yes, it was needless).


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Old 04-12-2018, 08:37 PM   #190
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Norm,

I perceive you as an intelligent person, but you are as stubborn as a rock. Do you for one second think that the average driver is even 1% as capable a driver as you, or as what you say you are?

You think you have driven a lot, but I would venture to say that I have many more driving miles than you with less years alive.

I'm going to give you a little anecdotal evidence(since you are obviously a huge proponent of it).

When I drive my truck for many miles at a time I get bored and make up games for myself to keep me entertained an engaged on the road. One of the games I play is, "identify the distracted driver". Instead of over exaggerating I try to be conservative and make my observations 100% identification. In other words I do not count it if I think I may have seen something.

On a trip from Jacksonville to Tampa Florida I identified 8 out of 10 drivers as being completely distracted. This includes many things, but phone is the most common. I drove next to a man from the south side of Orlando to the east side of Tampa who was in the left lane(passing lane for those uninformed). He paced me unintentionally the whole time holding up all the traffic for 68 miles. He did not put his phone down once, it looked like he was watching videos the whole time.

My point. You are not the average driver, but you are trying to say we should based highway safety upon your skill level. Hell, if what you say is true, I'm not even close to your skill level and I'm a professional driver.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:20 PM   #191
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You really need to know that I just don't get into such situations on the street, though I did once manage to needlessly trigger the stability control on my wife's car (yes, it was needless).
I understand that, but I don't think that you are representative of the majority of drivers at your apparent skill level.

I want to support and build technology that IS representative of the majority of drivers. I apologize if the technology is not useful for you in this instance, but it doesn't mean that it can't be useful for many other people who are going to continue to exist as bad/distracted/uninvolved drivers whether we like it or not.

The beautiful thing about all of these technological advancements is that nobody is going to force you to to buy a car that has them. Take seat belts for instance: An invention that has likely saved the lives of MILLIONS of passengers since they became a requirement in new cars. Classic cars from before seatbelts were written into law in 1968 can still be driven on the road today without them, regardless of the fact that seatbelts save lives at almost no cost to the driver.

This will continue to be the case with safety features like automation: You will never be forced into an automated car, and they will never become popular unless they do a better job than the drivers that they are replacing (again, a bar that you personally do not set).
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:56 PM   #192
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Norm,

I perceive you as an intelligent person, but you are as stubborn as a rock. Do you for one second think that the average driver is even 1% as capable a driver as you, or as what you say you are?

You think you have driven a lot, but I would venture to say that I have many more driving miles than you with less years alive.

I'm going to give you a little anecdotal evidence(since you are obviously a huge proponent of it).

When I drive my truck for many miles at a time I get bored and make up games for myself to keep me entertained an engaged on the road. One of the games I play is, "identify the distracted driver". Instead of over exaggerating I try to be conservative and make my observations 100% identification. In other words I do not count it if I think I may have seen something.

On a trip from Jacksonville to Tampa Florida I identified 8 out of 10 drivers as being completely distracted. This includes many things, but phone is the most common. I drove next to a man from the south side of Orlando to the east side of Tampa who was in the left lane(passing lane for those uninformed). He paced me unintentionally the whole time holding up all the traffic for 68 miles. He did not put his phone down once, it looked like he was watching videos the whole time.

My point. You are not the average driver, but you are trying to say we should based highway safety upon your skill level. Hell, if what you say is true, I'm not even close to your skill level and I'm a professional driver.
So you are saying what most of the people you see are distracted with is technology?
Kinda ironic that we are trying to fix the problem by piling on more technology.

But everyone is absolutely certain that the people building these autonomous vehicles are not at all distracted while they are building the cars and programing the computers.
And the people that maintain and repair the cars will never be distracted by their phones.
And the corporate executives are being 100% honest about how perfect these cars are.

If people are not smart enough or alert enough to drive themselves to work, how smart and alert are they when they get to work.
Once we have the technology to get people to work with out them having to think, perhaps we can start developing technology that will think for them and do their work for them so they can play with their smart phone all day.
Just think of all the things we can have technology do for us, driving, cooking , cleaning, filing, creating presentations, and how about sex, we can create some technology to have sex for us so we don't have to pay attention to our partner.
When does it stop?
Never, people adore technology, technology can do no wrong, and the big corporations can make billions as long as they can convince us we need it,its for the children, think of the children,if it saves one child its worth it.
I believe these cars can be and will be very good one day.
But that day is a long ways of, and in the mean time its going to be rough.
Lots more Mark Zukerberg's trying to convince us they have our best interest at heart.
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:02 AM   #193
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Norm,

I perceive you as an intelligent person, but you are as stubborn as a rock.
It's not without basis. I'm also quite certain that my wife can make the same claims about not getting into either ABS or stability control that I do.


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You think you have driven a lot, but I would venture to say that I have many more driving miles than you with less years alive.
As soon as I read that I was immediately thinking CDL-A. Since my son and son-in-law both drive 18-wheelers for a living I do hear some of the stories, and I know I'm only hearing a small portion of what goes on.


Quote:
I'm going to give you a little anecdotal evidence(since you are obviously a huge proponent of it).

When I drive my truck for many miles at a time I get bored and make up games for myself to keep me entertained an engaged on the road. One of the games I play is, "identify the distracted driver". Instead of over exaggerating I try to be conservative and make my observations 100% identification. In other words I do not count it if I think I may have seen something.
I'll have to pass that on to the boys.


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On a trip from Jacksonville to Tampa Florida I identified 8 out of 10 drivers as being completely distracted. This includes many things, but phone is the most common. I drove next to a man from the south side of Orlando to the east side of Tampa who was in the left lane(passing lane for those uninformed). He paced me unintentionally the whole time holding up all the traffic for 68 miles. He did not put his phone down once, it looked like he was watching videos the whole time.
Truly scary. I don't even touch my phone while I'm driving unless I've got a passenger I can hand it off to should it ring. It's a flip-phone, so it's not very good at much more than its "talk to other people' app.


Quote:
My point. You are not the average driver, but you are trying to say we should based highway safety upon your skill level. Hell, if what you say is true, I'm not even close to your skill level and I'm a professional driver.
What I'm trying to say is that it is possible to safely do without any of these assistances, which isn't the same thing as saying doing so is safely guaranteed for any person taken at random. For all I know, it may not even be possible in some cases.

People should be smooth enough at the controls that they almost never (or maybe all the way to never) invoke any of these technologies. Should be able to, at least.


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Old 04-13-2018, 09:49 AM   #194
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I understand that, but I don't think that you are representative of the majority of drivers at your apparent skill level.
Let me turn that around . . . there isn't anything so technically or physically difficult about driving that would prevent most people from being better than whatever we're assuming is 'average'.


Quote:
I want to support and build technology that IS representative of the majority of drivers. I apologize if the technology is not useful for you in this instance, but it doesn't mean that it can't be useful for many other people who are going to continue to exist as bad/distracted/uninvolved drivers whether we like it or not.
I do understand the technology behind many of these developments, maybe better than most drivers. And, apparently, how to get very close to the thresholds at which they step in without ever triggering them. Not entirely coincidentally, I had an opportunity to do an estimated 0.8+g stop from about 60 mph last night. No lockup, no ABS. That was after I'd taken the time think about and then actually commenting to my son that "I could still stop [if the light goes yellow]". Yes, I had checked my mirrors first.

Interesting that you mention seat belts. I've been using them in every car that had them since I started driving. The driver side belt that was backfit into a hotrodded 1960 compact car probably saved my life in 1966. Of course, a seat belt isn't a device that can choose to control the vehicle dynamics differently from the way I might. I have no problems with developments like belts and improved passenger cell integrity.


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This will continue to be the case with safety features like automation: You will never be forced into an automated car, and they will never become popular unless they do a better job than the drivers that they are replacing (again, a bar that you personally do not set).
I don't expect to be the guy that "sets the bar". Just the guy who gets the least benefit from it (at best) and the greatest change for the worse in terms of having something that I actively enjoy doing taken away from me by the popular preferences of others. On that very last item, it's hardly a good reward for a driving life that's been generally well-lived.


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Old 04-13-2018, 10:31 AM   #195
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The more we take responsibility away from drivers, the more they will take advantage. Lane departure is for people texting instead of driving. By making driving so safe, we’ve ensured the lazy and incompetent to escape the fate they deserve. Driving habits are at an all time low in terms of following the rules of the road and good old manners. I’d like to see mandatory technology that disables all cellphones while in motion over more crutches for people unable or unwilling to give driving the level of seriousness it requires.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:35 AM   #196
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The more we take responsibility away from drivers, the more they will take advantage. Lane departure is for people texting instead of driving. By making driving so safe, we’ve ensured the lazy and incompetent to escape the fate they deserve. Driving habits are at an all time low in terms of following the rules of the road and good old manners. I’d like to see mandatory technology that disables all cellphones while in motion over more crutches for people unable or unwilling to give driving the level of seriousness it requires.
+ a bunch more than 1
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