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Old 10-01-2019, 09:59 AM   #3683
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Yea and $10K over the course of 20 years is only $500 a year. And to think that you had to buy one of those cars in the first place. So a person who has little money could save $50 a month for 20 years and have more money at the end of that time than a person who bought and stored one of those cars. And the person with little money would not have had to come out of pocket first to get the money. But like I said, the Ford GT doubled it's value in just 2-3 years. It went from being a $130K vehicle to being worth $250K minimum for even a well driven sample. People think these cars these days will do that and they are wrong.

The funny thing is that back then I had just started my career. I remember seeing the Ford GT and thinking that I could afford it if I stretched my money. I didn't know they would increase in value like they did. I just thought they were awesome looking cars and I wanted one really bad. If I had the money back then that I have now then I surely would have bought one. The performance they had at the price they were at was a steal at that time. And if I did buy one then I would have made $100K - $200K in 2-3 years. If only I had started my career even 5 years earlier and never had bought that 03 Mustang GT that turned into a money pit...
Itís really more like $50k on the integra

I was counting for inflation, storage costs, and maintenance, $10k is the net

Lots of exotics appreciate instantly
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Old 10-01-2019, 10:14 AM   #3684
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I probably mentioned this before but I don't feel like going back and searching. I asked a bunch of people on some of the Vette pages/groups/forums I frequent which C7 handles closest to the 6th Gen ZL1 and which of the C8s will likely handle closest to that? Handling capabilities only. Not which one will get around a track faster. Some said that the Base C7 will handle like a 6th Gen ZL1. And those same people said they expect the Base C8 to handle as well as the C7 GS.

So in handling capabilities they rated the cars as ZL1 > Base C7 > C7 Z51 > C7 GS tied with Base C8 > C7 Z06 tied with C8 Z51. Remember, this is just handling capabilities and speculation. C8 is speculation but I would assume that comparisons between the C7 and ZL1 would be accurate as both cars have been out for years...although Vette guys might be a bit enthusiastic about how the Vette handles compared to a ZL1. The ZL1 can probably beat a Base C7 around a track due to having much more HP. But I did see a ZL1 guy somewhere mention that a properly driven C7 GS with a good driver could beat him around some tracks in his ZLE.

So thru scaling and speculation, if this is correct, then I do wonder if the Base C8 would handle on par with the C7 GS and if it could manage to beat a ZLE around the track. Because if so, then that also makes me believe that with such amazing acceleration (0-60 3.0 sec and 1/4 mile 11.3) it will manage to stay ahead of the GT500 on just about any track. If there are very long straights then the GT500 might close the gap a bit. But not before the next corner which will see the C8 increase the gap yet again. I doubt there would be any tracks with enough straights and some long enough straights (except an oval) that the GT500 will manage to catch up, pass, and then keep the lead. The Z51 then would definitely be able to beat the GT500 whether it be the Base or CF version.

Again this is all speculation. But I feel like we might see some ridiculous performance numbers out of the C8 in even in Base trim.
Keep in mind the c8 will not be much quicker in a straight line then the c7 on a track straight.

The insanely quick 0-60 is mostly from the traction advantage of MR and the dct 1-2 shift. Put slicks on a c7 and itíll do 0-60 pretty close to 3 seconds as well.

The c6 z06 had the power:weight to run 10ís@125 out of the box, it just didnít have the traction on the trans, which is why only a pro driver could do it. Iím guessing the c8 is like 3300-3400lbs. 11.3 @ 121 is my guess.

I doubt the base c8 will compete with the zl1 1le, suspension and weight transfer advantages arenít going to make up for zle downforce and super sticky tires.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:01 AM   #3685
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I probably mentioned this before but I don't feel like going back and searching. I asked a bunch of people on some of the Vette pages/groups/forums I frequent which C7 handles closest to the 6th Gen ZL1 and which of the C8s will likely handle closest to that? Handling capabilities only. Not which one will get around a track faster. Some said that the Base C7 will handle like a 6th Gen ZL1. And those same people said they expect the Base C8 to handle as well as the C7 GS.

So in handling capabilities they rated the cars as ZL1 > Base C7 > C7 Z51 > C7 GS tied with Base C8 > C7 Z06 tied with C8 Z51. Remember, this is just handling capabilities and speculation. C8 is speculation but I would assume that comparisons between the C7 and ZL1 would be accurate as both cars have been out for years...although Vette guys might be a bit enthusiastic about how the Vette handles compared to a ZL1. The ZL1 can probably beat a Base C7 around a track due to having much more HP. But I did see a ZL1 guy somewhere mention that a properly driven C7 GS with a good driver could beat him around some tracks in his ZLE.

So thru scaling and speculation, if this is correct, then I do wonder if the Base C8 would handle on par with the C7 GS and if it could manage to beat a ZLE around the track. Because if so, then that also makes me believe that with such amazing acceleration (0-60 3.0 sec and 1/4 mile 11.3) it will manage to stay ahead of the GT500 on just about any track. If there are very long straights then the GT500 might close the gap a bit. But not before the next corner which will see the C8 increase the gap yet again. I doubt there would be any tracks with enough straights and some long enough straights (except an oval) that the GT500 will manage to catch up, pass, and then keep the lead. The Z51 then would definitely be able to beat the GT500 whether it be the Base or CF version.

Again this is all speculation. But I feel like we might see some ridiculous performance numbers out of the C8 in even in Base trim.
The first time I tracked my SS Vert there were four of us in our group, which I dubbed "The Small Block Mafia" since all of us had cars with Chevy Small Block V8. This was at M1 Concourse and you could only participate if you owned a garage there or were invited by a garage owner. The garage owner who invited us drove a C7 GS. I had my car, another car he invited was a 2017 ZL1 M6, and a C6 GS, heavily modded. The garage owner (C7 GS) not only smoked all of us, but he chased down a GT3 through the curves and eventually the GT3 driver waved him by on the straight. I was in the passenger seat of the C7 GS for that run, providing an additional 200 lb disadvantage So, clearly he was a better driver than the rest of us, but the GT3 owner was also a garage owner and arguably knew the course as well as my friend.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:49 AM   #3686
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I probably mentioned this before but I don't feel like going back and searching. I asked a bunch of people on some of the Vette pages/groups/forums I frequent which C7 handles closest to the 6th Gen ZL1 and which of the C8s will likely handle closest to that? Handling capabilities only. Not which one will get around a track faster. Some said that the Base C7 will handle like a 6th Gen ZL1. And those same people said they expect the Base C8 to handle as well as the C7 GS.

So in handling capabilities they rated the cars as ZL1 > Base C7 > C7 Z51 > C7 GS tied with Base C8 > C7 Z06 tied with C8 Z51. Remember, this is just handling capabilities and speculation. C8 is speculation but I would assume that comparisons between the C7 and ZL1 would be accurate as both cars have been out for years...although Vette guys might be a bit enthusiastic about how the Vette handles compared to a ZL1. The ZL1 can probably beat a Base C7 around a track due to having much more HP. But I did see a ZL1 guy somewhere mention that a properly driven C7 GS with a good driver could beat him around some tracks in his ZLE.

So thru scaling and speculation, if this is correct, then I do wonder if the Base C8 would handle on par with the C7 GS and if it could manage to beat a ZLE around the track. Because if so, then that also makes me believe that with such amazing acceleration (0-60 3.0 sec and 1/4 mile 11.3) it will manage to stay ahead of the GT500 on just about any track. If there are very long straights then the GT500 might close the gap a bit. But not before the next corner which will see the C8 increase the gap yet again. I doubt there would be any tracks with enough straights and some long enough straights (except an oval) that the GT500 will manage to catch up, pass, and then keep the lead. The Z51 then would definitely be able to beat the GT500 whether it be the Base or CF version.

Again this is all speculation. But I feel like we might see some ridiculous performance numbers out of the C8 in even in Base trim.
I think the C8 Z51 will probably be able to handle close to or slightly better than the C7 GS. I don't know if it would be able to catch the ZLE though. That's not anything against the C8, but more a compliment on the ZLE. If you look at lap times of other ME cars with similar power/weight they are few seconds behind the lap times of the ZLE.

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Originally Posted by GuywithL86 View Post
Keep in mind the c8 will not be much quicker in a straight line then the c7 on a track straight.

The insanely quick 0-60 is mostly from the traction advantage of MR and the dct 1-2 shift. Put slicks on a c7 and itíll do 0-60 pretty close to 3 seconds as well.

The c6 z06 had the power:weight to run 10ís@125 out of the box, it just didnít have the traction on the trans, which is why only a pro driver could do it. Iím guessing the c8 is like 3300-3400lbs. 11.3 @ 121 is my guess.

I doubt the base c8 will compete with the zl1 1le, suspension and weight transfer advantages arenít going to make up for zle downforce and super sticky tires.
The C8 will dry weight 3300 pounds and change, so its probably around 3500 with fluids.

Agree the ZLE has a ton of advantages over the C8 Z51.

Advantages for the ZLE: tires, brakes, aero, suspension, 155 more HP, 180 more tq.

Advantages for C8 - Mid engine layout, about 300 pounds less weight, DCT

Again not a slight on the C8, I just think the ZLE has to many things going for it.
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it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:58 AM   #3687
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I think the C8 Z51 will probably be able to handle close to or slightly better than the C7 GS. I don't know if it would be able to catch the ZLE though. That's not anything against the C8, but more a compliment on the ZLE. If you look at lap times of other ME cars with similar power/weight they are few seconds behind the lap times of the ZLE.



The C8 will dry weight 3300 pounds and change, so its probably around 3500 with fluids.

Agree the ZLE has a ton of advantages over the C8 Z51.

Advantages for the ZLE: tires, brakes, aero, suspension, 155 more HP, 180 more tq.

Advantages for C8 - Mid engine layout, about 300 pounds less weight, DCT

Again not a slight on the C8, I just think the ZLE has to many things going for it.
I seriously doubt it it only 300lbs lighter, probably more like 500lbs

The c7 z06 is 380lbs lighter, both with fluids, so I’d think an NA c8 will be around 33xx with fluids
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Old 10-01-2019, 12:52 PM   #3688
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Even if the advantage of the C8 is due to traction it still takes HP to run those times at those speeds. Remember, the 650 HP ZL1 is 11.4 at 122. So the C8 is running a tenth faster at the same speed. So even tho it has the traction to do those 0-60s it is still ahead of the ZL1 at the end of the quarter where they are doing the same speed. Perhaps beyond the quarter the ZL1 will catch it. But it can be assumed that if both cars are coming around a bend at 60 MPH and they both nail it the ZL1 would need some time to pass the C8. I doubt it will just blow by it. Unless that 0-60 just puts the C8 soo far ahead that the ZL1 needs more than a quarter mile to catch up. Maybe without that head start the ZL1 would actually blow by it. This all remains to be seen.

But we can speculate that the Base C8 WILL beat a GT350R around a track. I think that is a given and not debatable. So depending on how bad it kicks the GT350R's ass, it could be possible that it'll also beat the ZL1. Remember the ZL1 beat the R by 0.4 sec. That is a lot. But let's say the Base C8 beats the R on that same track by 0.6 seconds. That means it runs 2 tenths faster than the ZL1 on that same track. It could be all thru carrying a lot of speed thru the turns and coming out at higher speeds. I don't know. But it is possible that the Base C8 will beat the R by a larger margin than the ZL1 did. So if the Z51 C8 is to the Base C8 what the ZLE is to the ZL1 then it stands to reason that the Z51 just might be able to get around a track faster than the ZLE.

This is all scaling and speculation but I do not think I'm far off. In fact I think I might be more right than wrong. If the Z51 can beat the C7 GS and the ZLE then I doubt there is anything besides the C7 ZR1 and C8 GS/Z06/ZR1 that will beat it. But maybe I'm just a little hopeful.
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Old 10-01-2019, 12:55 PM   #3689
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I seriously doubt it it only 300lbs lighter, probably more like 500lbs

The c7 z06 is 380lbs lighter, both with fluids, so Iíd think an NA c8 will be around 33xx with fluids
The ZLE is 3800 and change. If the leaked specs from the engineer book are right on the C8, than the Z51 weighs 3577. A difference of around 300 pounds
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:04 PM   #3690
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I seriously doubt it it only 300lbs lighter, probably more like 500lbs

The c7 z06 is 380lbs lighter, both with fluids, so Iíd think an NA c8 will be around 33xx with fluids
Chevrolet lists the C8 Corvette Stingray coupe's curb weight at 3,366 pounds, 68 heavier than the '18 Stingray coupe and 16 pounds lighter than the new 911 Carrera S.

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2...nsions-torque/

Curb weight includes fluids - what's left to question is gas - empty/full.
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:17 PM   #3691
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Even if the advantage of the C8 is due to traction it still takes HP to run those times at those speeds. Remember, the 650 HP ZL1 is 11.4 at 122. So the C8 is running a tenth faster at the same speed. So even tho it has the traction to do those 0-60s it is still ahead of the ZL1 at the end of the quarter where they are doing the same speed. Perhaps beyond the quarter the ZL1 will catch it. But it can be assumed that if both cars are coming around a bend at 60 MPH and they both nail it the ZL1 would need some time to pass the C8. I doubt it will just blow by it. Unless that 0-60 just puts the C8 soo far ahead that the ZL1 needs more than a quarter mile to catch up. Maybe without that head start the ZL1 would actually blow by it. This all remains to be seen.

But we can speculate that the Base C8 WILL beat a GT350R around a track. I think that is a given and not debatable. So depending on how bad it kicks the GT350R's ass, it could be possible that it'll also beat the ZL1. Remember the ZL1 beat the R by 0.4 sec. That is a lot. But let's say the Base C8 beats the R on that same track by 0.6 seconds. That means it runs 2 tenths faster than the ZL1 on that same track. It could be all thru carrying a lot of speed thru the turns and coming out at higher speeds. I don't know. But it is possible that the Base C8 will beat the R by a larger margin than the ZL1 did. So if the Z51 C8 is to the Base C8 what the ZLE is to the ZL1 then it stands to reason that the Z51 just might be able to get around a track faster than the ZLE.

This is all scaling and speculation but I do not think I'm far off. In fact I think I might be more right than wrong. If the Z51 can beat the C7 GS and the ZLE then I doubt there is anything besides the C7 ZR1 and C8 GS/Z06/ZR1 that will beat it. But maybe I'm just a little hopeful.
You might be a bit hopeful. I think it will beat the R, and might beat the ZL1. Don't forget on different tracks the ZL1 has much larger margin of victory over the R. For it to beat the ZLE, it would have to perform as good or better than the 911 Turbo S, Ferrari 488GTB, and Mclaren 650S(based on LL times), cars that are both lighter and have more HP than the C8. I think the C8 is going to be an amazing performer. But I don't think it will be ZLE level of amazing

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Chevrolet lists the C8 Corvette Stingray coupe's curb weight at 3,366 pounds, 68 heavier than the '18 Stingray coupe and 16 pounds lighter than the new 911 Carrera S.

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2...nsions-torque/

Curb weight includes fluids - what's left to question is gas - empty/full.

The 3366 is the dry weight, I'm pretty sure one of GM's press releases even said that.

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...corvette-specs

From Road & Track

WEIGHTS & CAPACITIES
Dry Weight (lb. / kg): 3366 / 1530

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-photos-specs/
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Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(

Last edited by shaffe; 10-01-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:36 PM   #3692
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Even if the advantage of the C8 is due to traction it still takes HP to run those times at those speeds. Remember, the 650 HP ZL1 is 11.4 at 122. So the C8 is running a tenth faster at the same speed. So even tho it has the traction to do those 0-60s it is still ahead of the ZL1 at the end of the quarter where they are doing the same speed. Perhaps beyond the quarter the ZL1 will catch it. But it can be assumed that if both cars are coming around a bend at 60 MPH and they both nail it the ZL1 would need some time to pass the C8. I doubt it will just blow by it. Unless that 0-60 just puts the C8 soo far ahead that the ZL1 needs more than a quarter mile to catch up. Maybe without that head start the ZL1 would actually blow by it. This all remains to be seen.
Good point. Here is what is wierd about my A10 ZL1 even with just a Rotofab on DRs it ran 122-129 the same day with 11.5-11.1 ETs at Cecil. Almost all of the launches were in the mid to low 1.7s. Ted had said he sees wierd throttle closings on a stock tune and Pray has put at least 1 stock ZL1 into the 10s with just a tune.

The ZL1 is a victim of a stock tune. Did Chevy hold the ZL1 back a bit so as not to show up the Corvette? Or.....?
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Old 10-01-2019, 02:04 PM   #3693
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You might be a bit hopeful. I think it will beat the R, and might beat the ZL1. Don't forget on different tracks the ZL1 has much larger margin of victory over the R. For it to beat the ZLE, it would have to perform as good or better than the 911 Turbo S, Ferrari 488GTB, and Mclaren 650S(based on LL times), cars that are both lighter and have more HP than the C8. I think the C8 is going to be an amazing performer. But I don't think it will be ZLE level of amazing




The 3366 is the dry weight, I'm pretty sure one of GM's press releases even said that.

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...corvette-specs

From Road & Track

WEIGHTS & CAPACITIES
Dry Weight (lb. / kg): 3366 / 1530

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-photos-specs/
Good info - site I linked and quoted was clearly wrong!
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Old 10-01-2019, 02:15 PM   #3694
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You might be a bit hopeful. I think it will beat the R, and might beat the ZL1. Don't forget on different tracks the ZL1 has much larger margin of victory over the R. For it to beat the ZLE, it would have to perform as good or better than the 911 Turbo S, Ferrari 488GTB, and Mclaren 650S(based on LL times), cars that are both lighter and have more HP than the C8. I think the C8 is going to be an amazing performer. But I don't think it will be ZLE level of amazing
Remember the cars that GM is targeting with the C8. Maybe the C8 is better balanced. Maybe the suspension is tighter. Maybe it has better or more power in a different part of the RPM band that might prove to be advantageous. All this remains to be seen. I do think the C8 Z51 will at least beat a ZL1 around just about any track. It will be a feat if it can beat a ZLE. But I do think GM has something up their sleeves. They built this Vette to shatter the performance world so I think we might be in for some surprises.
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Good point. Here is what is wierd about my A10 ZL1 even with just a Rotofab on DRs it ran 122-129 the same day with 11.5-11.1 ETs at Cecil. Almost all of the launches were in the mid to low 1.7s. Ted had said he sees wierd throttle closings on a stock tune and Pray has put at least 1 stock ZL1 into the 10s with just a tune.

The ZL1 is a victim of a stock tune. Did Chevy hold the ZL1 back a bit so as not to show up the Corvette? Or.....?
My argument is that GM builds cars to be competitive not just in the year they are built but several years afterwards. And then they move on to the next thing while other cars try to catch up. That is why we hardly see performance increases mid Gen these days. Because the original product is still good enough that the competition's heavily updated cars can barely beat them in some cases and still lose in other cases. So I am sure that when they built the ZL1 and ZLE they already were working on the performance of the next big thing which is the ZR1 and the C8. Perhaps they did kinda restrict the ZL1 and ZLE. If they did then that is impressive considering that the competition struggles to keep up...and what the competition needs just to win or almost win (707 HP Hellcats, 797 HP Redeyes, 760 HP GT500s). I'm looking forward to seeing some actual performance data from these cars.
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Old 10-01-2019, 02:33 PM   #3695
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Remember the cars that GM is targeting with the C8. Maybe the C8 is better balanced. Maybe the suspension is tighter. Maybe it has better or more power in a different part of the RPM band that might prove to be advantageous. All this remains to be seen. I do think the C8 Z51 will at least beat a ZL1 around just about any track. It will be a feat if it can beat a ZLE. But I do think GM has something up their sleeves. They built this Vette to shatter the performance world so I think we might be in for some surprises.

My argument is that GM builds cars to be competitive not just in the year they are built but several years afterwards. And then they move on to the next thing while other cars try to catch up. That is why we hardly see performance increases mid Gen these days. Because the original product is still good enough that the competition's heavily updated cars can barely beat them in some cases and still lose in other cases. So I am sure that when they built the ZL1 and ZLE they already were working on the performance of the next big thing which is the ZR1 and the C8. Perhaps they did kinda restrict the ZL1 and ZLE. If they did then that is impressive considering that the competition struggles to keep up...and what the competition needs just to win or almost win (707 HP Hellcats, 797 HP Redeyes, 760 HP GT500s). I'm looking forward to seeing some actual performance data from these cars.
Maybe. I guess I just tend to stay in the glass being half empty more than half full. I know power isn't the end all be all.

I am just saying if you look at the mid engine cars that put up better lap times than the ZLE and compare those cars to the C8, you will see they either have more power, lighter or both. There's only so much magic GM can do with the chassis and suspension.

I'll be the first to eat some crow if I am wrong, but I'd still put my money on the ZLE putting up better lap times than the C8 Z51.


As far as restricting the ZL1. The only way I think they did was the nannies might be a little over aggressive in protecting the drivetrain from getting grenaded.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 10-01-2019, 02:43 PM   #3696
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
Even if the advantage of the C8 is due to traction it still takes HP to run those times at those speeds. Remember, the 650 HP ZL1 is 11.4 at 122. So the C8 is running a tenth faster at the same speed. So even tho it has the traction to do those 0-60s it is still ahead of the ZL1 at the end of the quarter where they are doing the same speed. Perhaps beyond the quarter the ZL1 will catch it. But it can be assumed that if both cars are coming around a bend at 60 MPH and they both nail it the ZL1 would need some time to pass the C8. I doubt it will just blow by it. Unless that 0-60 just puts the C8 soo far ahead that the ZL1 needs more than a quarter mile to catch up. Maybe without that head start the ZL1 would actually blow by it. This all remains to be seen.
The zl1 is not a 122mph car, maybe for some it is

Same driver, same track, same da, guarantee the zl1 is 4-5mph faster in trap speed than a stock c8.

So yes, if they both run 11.3, the c8 makes it all up in that 0-60 time and the zl1 will start steaming back from behind.
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