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Old 05-30-2018, 10:33 AM   #2199
mjross
 
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Originally Posted by keon718nyc View Post
Well its easy then. Instead of complaining about the refresh, just get or look at something else that will make you happy that's not ugly AF. LOL. Its just that simple....
And isn’t that the real problem. I love the Camaro. I’m on my forth one in 3 years. However, the refresh is still ugly AF. I don’t care how you slice it.
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:35 AM   #2200
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Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR View Post
That Black SS convertible...
I'm pretty sure that's an RS? if you are talking about the third pic
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:48 AM   #2201
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Originally Posted by Rob13567 View Post
I'm pretty sure that's an RS? if you are talking about the third pic
No that's a SS, there is no bowtie in the upper grill
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:55 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by mjross View Post
Even uglier now!
Ok I didn't expect that
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:56 AM   #2203
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Originally Posted by raptor5244 View Post
...an ugly but fantastic performance car ...
I think that's the perfect tag line for the 6th gen refresh.
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:57 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by Boost Creep View Post
In a post in that thread they had a commercial from 1984 with a Camaro starting out at $7,995, that's like $18,500 in todays money. At that price sales would skyrocket.
Like I posted in that thread, the $8,000 Camaro in 1984 was the Iron Duke 4 banger with a 4 speed manual, no air conditioning, no nothing. They would not sell a single car equipped like that in 2018. And if they tried, it would cost GM MORE to produce them than to produce all the Camaros with power everything due to production costs and logistical inventory of production parts. It costs more to have every part be an option, that's part of what drove GM and Chrysler in to BK - every car could be built with or without every individual feature. The incredible amount of different wiring, nuts, bolts, parts and presses/stamps required to offer those options made things a nightmare in the old days. Don't even get me started.

A loaded Z28 with the 350 and automatic was around $13,500 which is about $32,000 in today's money. Don't forget, even the base 2018 LS turbo 2.0 6 speed with zero options at $26,000 right now would even beat the fully loaded 1984 Z28 350 with a 5 speed stick in every aspect of performance. The 350 HO 5 speed 0-60 was 6.6 seconds, turbo 4 automatic today is 5.7 seconds. Also, handling and braking (even with the base stock brakes, no Brembos) isn't even close.

In other words, you can still have your base, no frills, high performance Camaro Z28 you could get in 1984 for under $30k in today's money. It's just going to be a turbo 4 now. But it's still going to blow the doors off your 1984 Camaro Z28.

That's really how you need to compare apples to apples. You also have to be mindful of the limitations of technology in 1984 vs 2018. Not even comparable. Even the brightest most forward thinking engineers in 1984 could not conceive of the technology our cars have in 2018 that enable performance, let alone creature comforts.

Last edited by fastball; 05-30-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:07 AM   #2205
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I do it for a living. Audi, Porsche, Subaru, VW, Fisker, etc. from national to regional to dealer level. (This doesn't include NIKE, Coke, etc.).

The Vette could use some advertising. It's average buyer is aged 61. Not exactly a market you will be reselling to in 5 years. And if not to sell, but to reinforce. Advertising isn't always about direct response. You buy something and every time you run into an ad, it reinforces your purchase decision. Or it is aspirational. The teen will someday be a 20 something. Maybe will be able to pull together the $$$ needed to make the purchase, instead of buying a Lexus or Audi.

The Camaro is currently in last, with Mustang #1 & Challenger #2, in sales.

Here is an ad, sadly done by a Dubai ad agency, I cannot say where its placement was outside of Dubai:

http://c.brightcove.com/services/mob...ubId=377748811

The only downside with this spot, is you barely see the Camaro to identify it is a Camaro and not a Mustang. Other than that, the competitive nature of the concept is a good one.

The Camaro is priced roughly $2K more than the Mustang. It does need to advertise, and take a position that will get it on the consideration list of buyers.

GM, prior to their bankruptcy, had a great ad agency working on Cadillac and Hummer. It moved plenty of vehicles (agency was called Modernista!).

It is all about knowing your target. You need to speak directly to them.

Hummer lost the PR war. In fact they never even bothered to participate. My new Camaro has the same gas mileage, my 2010 Hummer H3 Alpha gets in the city. But I doubt anyone is going to give me dirty looks like they do when I am in my Hummer.

Here is a spot for the H2



To woo women to the H3, they did an excellent job.

Here is one of them:



Hummer, prior to being demonized, found every marketable position available, especially in light of its perception as an SUV for men only.



I was a Mustang guy (1967 Shelby GT 500, 1970 Notchback).

The Camaro, at it highest level, ZL1 is not a freaking transformer, it is American Muscle. GM knows this, that is why they wrap themselves in the color of the flag, but do not have the intestinal fortitude to say it.

And advertising buys are no longer about blanketing the nation, from pre-rolls to regional & local buys, you can target specifically the excitement about owning these vehicles.

The first time I heard about the Fifty was on Friday. I picked it up on Saturday.

I have been in the market for a Camaro for just about 5 years. It took me that long without advertising creating any urgency for me to finally pull the trigger.

Bad advertising is always bad.

Great advertising is always good.

Know your audience. Speak their language. Understand their concerns. And you will create a relationship with them every time.

The adage of building a better mousetrap is nonsense. If no one knows about it, it doesn't exist.

Sorry about the rant.
I agree I think they could spice up the advertising a bit. Chevy's ads are horrible.

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Originally Posted by fastball View Post
Then how do you explain Dodge advertising their sports cars like no tomorrow? Smoking tires, power slides, drag races in the Challengers and Chargers while evoking the Dodge brother's rebellious spirit or Vin Diesel's Fast and Furious movies. Americans are inherently rebellious - we invented rock n roll. From my perspective, if I was not a dedicated Camaro/GM guy and I was undecided about what performance car I wanted, those commercials would definitely make me run to a Dodge dealer and seriously consider a Challenger or Charger.

If any GM division should be using Led Zeppelin's Rock n Roll, it should be Chevy, not Cadillac. Run that with a Camaro SS flying around a race track, doing some slick power slides into the corners, and touting the 6.2 V8 and Brembo brakes. THAT'S what I call "Finding New Roads"! That would sell 3300 more Camaros every year. Heck I remember as a teenager I LOVED every time the 1993 Camaro Z28 commercial where the two kids were naming the cars that passed by their house based on engine note and the one kid goes into full on "a 285 horsepower, fuel injected, 5.7 liter, 6 speed manual, Chevy Camaro Z-TWENTY EIGHT!"

Chevy is content advertising "real people" marveling at bluetooth, Apple Carplay, and JD Powers awards for a Cruze and Malibu. I understand most of America aren't car people and are pretty dumb when it comes to cars, but really, Chevy's current advertising is pretty lame. Even you have to admit that.
This. I literally just saw a dodge commercial. Challenger, Charger, and Durango. Smoking tires brotherhood of muscle, pretty well done ad. Then at the end of the ad, they advertised a lease special on the Journey. I wouldn't remember an ad for a Journey but Dodge did this one clever. It showed no Journey footage, it looked like a Challenger or Charger ad because that's what was featured but end of the ad boom Dodge Journey lease special
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:49 AM   #2206
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Originally Posted by fastball View Post
Like I posted in that thread, the $8,000 Camaro in 1984 was the Iron Duke 4 banger with a 4 speed manual, no air conditioning, no nothing. They would not sell a single car equipped like that in 2018. And if they tried, it would cost GM MORE to produce them than to produce all the Camaros with power everything due to production costs and logistical inventory of production parts. It costs more to have every part be an option, that's part of what drove GM and Chrysler in to BK - every car could be built with or without every individual feature. The incredible amount of different wiring, nuts, bolts, parts and presses/stamps required to offer those options made things a nightmare in the old days. Don't even get me started.

A loaded Z28 with the 350 and automatic was around $13,500 which is about $32,000 in today's money. Don't forget, even the base 2018 LS turbo 2.0 6 speed with zero options at $26,000 right now would even beat the fully loaded 1984 Z28 350 with a 5 speed stick in every aspect of performance. The 350 HO 5 speed 0-60 was 6.6 seconds, turbo 4 automatic today is 5.7 seconds. Also, handling and braking (even with the base stock brakes, no Brembos) isn't even close.

In other words, you can still have your base, no frills, high performance Camaro Z28 you could get in 1984 for under $30k in today's money. It's just going to be a turbo 4 now. But it's still going to blow the doors off your 1984 Camaro Z28.

That's really how you need to compare apples to apples. You also have to be mindful of the limitations of technology in 1984 vs 2018. Not even comparable. Even the brightest most forward thinking engineers in 1984 could not conceive of the technology our cars have in 2018 that enable performance, let alone creature comforts.
That's sort of what I'm getting at. Today a base Camaro is about 50% more than they should be due to the forced safety, emissions, and convenience features needed. Every year more air bags, more cameras, more smog sensors, more infotainment is tacked on making an affordable car expensive.
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:53 AM   #2207
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Originally Posted by mjross View Post
I would not say it looks fine. I would say it does not look as bad. Let’s get real here, I just had a Chevy dealer tell me that he does not know what the hell Chevy was thinking. He basically stated that his whole staff is in shock in regard to the refresh. Informed me that just about everyone has said.......Nooooooooooo!

All I can say is glad I purchased my 17 2SS at the end of the season last year because there is no frickin way in hell I’d buy a 2019. I’ve never liked the front of the recent Lexus which the refresh reminds of! Reminds of the creature from the movie Predator and that is not a good thing.

Chevy! The Camaro is suppose to be an American muscle car, are you listening, an American muscle car. We let you get away with the marginal 2016-18. You almost lost me until I drove it. Took a while but I finally accepted that it was still a marginal American muscle car that was leaning very heavily toward an American sports car. Still enough of the stuff and looks that sort of made it a muscle car.

Here’s the kicker, your audience for this car is old farts like me. And this refresh is not the answer. I know what you are doing, your trying to capture the younger crowd. However, you have made the Camaro so expensive that the average young American can not afford them. Hey Chevy, are you listening! Your marketing staff needs to think about a new vocation. Old farts are the ones buying these cars and this new refresh will have us running to Ford or Dodge to get that American muscle car look. Most of us have issues with the big mouth bass look. That is not an American muscle car. The 2016-18 pushed it pretty hard and almost lost some of us. I know I was on the fence.

When I was in high school, the average kid with a job washing dishes could afford a Camaro if you saved your pennies for a few years. In fact, a friend of mine did just that. Today, not a chance, you’d have to wash a lot of dishes to get a decent Camaro. So if you are catering to the young crowd I suggest you get your prices in line and people like me will just have to look to Ford or Dodge for decent American muscle cars. I really hope the Camaro survives after this but it is not looking good. All I can say is... The Heartbreak of America!


Well said.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:18 PM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Boost Creep View Post
That's sort of what I'm getting at. Today a base Camaro is about 50% more than they should be due to the forced safety, emissions, and convenience features needed. Every year more air bags, more cameras, more smog sensors, more infotainment is tacked on making an affordable car expensive.
But I think you miss my point - the base turbo 2.0 liter 4 cylinder with 275 hp and zero options is about $26,000. That's actually cheaper in today's money than a loaded 1984 Z28 350 HO. And you get a ton more features standard, and performance that beats it every aspect.

The problem here is everyone is comparing a 1984 Z28 5.7 HO to a 2018 SS 6.2 from the pure "V8 to V8" aspect. Or looking at the 2LT or 2SS. Just look at a base LS 2.0T with zero options. That's still MORE performance than an '84 Z28 - and $6,000 LESS when adjusted for inflation!!

If you went back in time with a base LS 2.0T Camaro to 1984 and let someone who owned a brand new Z28 350 drive it, they'd trade their Z28 in for it in a heartbeat.

So yes, you CAN still buy a powerful stripped down Camaro for washing dishes. Who here can't afford a $26,000 car? I could, straight out of college, in 1999.

That's what I'm getting at.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:36 PM   #2209
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But I think you miss my point - the base turbo 2.0 liter 4 cylinder with 275 hp and zero options is about $26,000. That's actually cheaper in today's money than a loaded 1984 Z28 350 HO. And you get a ton more features standard, and performance that beats it every aspect.

The problem here is everyone is comparing a 1984 Z28 5.7 HO to a 2018 SS 6.2 from the pure "V8 to V8" aspect. Or looking at the 2LT or 2SS. Just look at a base LS 2.0T with zero options. That's still MORE performance than an '84 Z28 - and $6,000 LESS when adjusted for inflation!!

If you went back in time with a base LS 2.0T Camaro to 1984 and let someone who owned a brand new Z28 350 drive it, they'd trade their Z28 in for it in a heartbeat.

So yes, you CAN still buy a powerful stripped down Camaro for washing dishes. Who here can't afford a $26,000 car? I could, straight out of college, in 1999.

That's what I'm getting at.
Well said! Also, comparing official inflation rates to reality is apples to bananas and doesnt apply nuch in real life. Look at cost of housing, food, travel, clothing etc etc.

Suggesting a Camaro should cost less than a base Corolla brings this point home...

Btw a Camaro is not a $65k car as some Dodge person suggested here. Most pay about $40 for an SS 1LE and some paid in the 30s - me included. And thats a bargain. One just has to get off their armchair and do some research.

As far as ads: they dont sell cars. They just create or maintain brand awareness and Chevy has been a fastest growing brand for a few yrs running now. So obviously whatever they are doing is working. Notwithstanding the experts here may have other ideas
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:47 PM   #2210
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LOL, I was responding to a post about having or wanting more expensive Camaro trims (like the ZL1) vs. wanting less expensive V8 options without a bunch of fluff to add to the cost of the car. ZL1's cost how much?
ZL1 is about $55k in USD where i live.
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:26 PM   #2211
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I know this thread is not about marketing or advertising but about the re fresh. Let me just say, I am on record that I HATE it. Maybe it will grow on me but I doubt it. Further more, commercials do actually work. I recently bought my Fiance a 18 Dodge Charger R/T. We were watching TV one night and one of those Dodge commercials came on and she said, why don't we trade in my Kia for one of those Chargers, its still got 4 doors for the kids? So we were on the Dodge lot the very next morning driving one. Purchased the one she wanted 2 weeks later in Phoenix. Ads do work and it sure wouldn't hurt Chevy to market the Camaro and Vette instead of those STUPID reality show commercials I cant stand. I sold my 2017 Chevy Silverado because I myself was waiting for the re fresh to buy a 2019 SS 1LE. That was until I saw the pictures of them. I couldn't believe it. So I started looking for a Challenger Scat Pack and came so so close to buying one. But I have always been GM loyal so it was killing me to imagine having 2 Dodge's. I ended up picking up a very low mileage 17 SS 1LE here on the forum that I am extremely happy with. Point being, the re fresh made me buy a used 17 instead of what I was wanting a new 2019 because they just don't look good AT ALL to me, and I almost bought a Challenger. I am sure I am not the only one that has done that with this re fresh.....AND commercials sure wouldn't hurt Chevy one bit. We are in our 40's and Dodges bad ass commercials worked on us!
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:27 PM   #2212
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$55k brand new? The cheapest one within 150 miles of me is $61,500. The dealer closest to me has 2, one for $63,600 and another for $64,900. Hell, the cheapest used 6th gen ZL1 within about 150 miles is $53k and change. The ZL1 1LE's are about $70k here.

Anyway, if you read what we were discussing. I'd like something stripped down without a bunch of expensive BS. I just want a V8 Camaro to drive a few hours a week and have some fun. I'm not going to DD it, I don't need a bunch of comforts and I sure as hell don't want to pay for Matt Farah's exotic animal skinned dash or whatever he wants it to be made out of. It'd just be nice to have a cheaper trimmed V8 option, that's all. Instead, they keep adding things and jacking up the prices.
Yep brand new albeit ordered vs lot car which usually has options... it seems Camaros are a bit cheaper here while Mustangs are more $. Unsure why. For example a GT350 (base vs R) is much more than a ZL1 which makes little sense...and hence we still have new 2017s on local lots...

I hear you on the stripper. Kinda what Mustang LX used to be right? Having said that a 1ss can surely be had for proly mid 30s which aint bad in comparison. But this likely means ordering one or taking advantage of GMs 15 or 20% discount sales which they seem to do regularly about 3 times per year.

I think the market for sport coupes has changed over the years. And with it the target audience and hence the pricing and trims. Just a guess on my part based on seeing who actually drives them. Cheers!
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