[90503]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

And its a tiny fraction of people who spend the bulk of their time driving hundreds of miles on the highway in a single trip with their personal car. Nearly 0. Most people who take long road trips do it no more than a couple times a year. Anyone that does have range anxiety and wants to do road trips and also don't want to recharge as they stop and eat lunch or visit a tourist trap (which is getting easier and easier to do), they can still just rent a car and keep their EV at home.



You argument is akin to saying no truck will ever sell unless it has at least a 12,000 lb tow rating & a 1 ton payload capacity -because sometimes some people need that level of capability so everyone always needs to have it available to them.

If that's the case there would have been no reason to put highway mpg on new vehicle window stickers of gasoline powered vehicles. Customers want to know what they are getting into as far as mileage and different types of driving. You think people don't want to know how far they can go on the open road without charging? As part of the new all electric era, no-one should know, or even want to know? I guess that's the all electric future, don't ask, don't tell.

All electric cars and their promoters know this is the Achilles Heel of EVs and they will do anything to blur the picture and keep their dirty little secret buried in obscure "range" figures. EV highway mileage plummets, so they won't separate it from city mileage like gasoline engine cars do. Gas cars get better mileage highway, less in city....EVs are the opposite, worse highway mileage and better in city.


Anyone who travels at all....even once or twice a year, and most do so more often than you might think, will avoid these EVs like the plague. Unless they magically buy into EVs and suddenly no longer care how many miles they can actually travel on the open road.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

This is true! Perhaps a partnership with GM and their manufacturing processes could bring the price down some, but Rivian is already talking 70K+ for this truck.

I did some digging. 69k for the base model. which would be a 230 mile range.

They are also taking the Tesla 3 sale model and only selling the expensive 400 mile range model at the end of 2020 and 12 months after that, sell the base model. I would imagine 6 figures for the top of the line model. Or very close to it.

[PoorMansCamaro]

They are also taking a $1,000 refundable deposit to reserve one. lol

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Yes...again that's the same clear as mud answer that is usually given..."Mixed use"....There is no mixed use on a long trip of several hundred miles where it's all highway (high speed) for one, two, three hundred miles at a time. Unless the customer, or maybe I'm the only one, knows how many miles can be traveled at hi-speeds/highway speeds "ONLY"....then they won't sell.

I guess I don’t know how much detail you need to understand what I mean by mixed use. I drove on city streets with speed limits ranging from 30 to 55 mph. Assume I’m almost always at least 5 over. I drove on highways with speed limits ranging from. 55 mph to 70 mph. Assume I am almost always 5 - 10 over. I drove in suburban areas with 8 lane boulevards and speed limits up to 50 mpg. Again, assume I’m going 5 - 10 over. In all cases, Tesla, Bolt, and Volt I consistently exceed the displayed range.

For example, I get in my wife’s Volt and it has 16,500 miles on the odometer and says it has 47 miles range. So I should be able to get to 16,547 before the engine turns on. I go about my day which includes driving on I-696 (Michigan’s Autobahn) Telegraph Road (a suburban thoroughfare) and some time on each of the Mile Roads (8-Mile Rd, 12-Mile Rd, etc). I return home and the odometer reads 16,531 and her range gauge says it has 21 miles left. Which means I could have driven it to 16,552 before the engine would have come on. Five miles more than it estimated before I left. Now, even though I made up the numbers for this example, it is very much representative of what happens when I drive my wife’s Volt. I tend to over perform the range, even when I have highway driving included and I drive above the posted limit.

[JerTM]

Originally Posted by ilirg

Think it's cool, but how many charging stations are out there in the wilderness and trails

same as the amount of gas stations

[rocket403]

At this moment in Ontario the Electric Vehicles don't have the infrastructure set up to handle quick charging, and even regular charging is not available. So I assume that all people that have Tesla's are doing their charging at home. I do a lot of travel with my daughters hockey on the weekends I guess all those trips could be done with the range these EV have but I have no interest in them. My question would be the cost to my electric bill, this is a valid question and only someone who lives in Ontario would understand and be able to answer. With the highest Hydro in North America not sure the cost in my area would make much of a difference when you look a cost per km to drive, most people that I have met that have a Tesla is more about the show than anything. My wife drives 200km a day that adds up to about 55k a year would a EV be able to handle that type of km long term and for how long, right now we turn her cars over every 5 years or so and buy cheap to keep costs down.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I guess I don’t know how much detail you need to understand what I mean by mixed use.

Good grief. I know exactly what is meant by mixed use. And again trying to get an answer as to how many highway miles at highway speeds can be traveled non stop on a single charge seems to be unanswerable and dodged continuously. The only acceptable explanation is well, mixed use, combined, nobody travels long distances, who cares, rent a gas car, just stop at a tourist trap and recharge, etc., etc.....

Their are tens of thousands of drivers who travel regularly hundreds of miles at a time in their only personal vehicle....non-stop...LA to Vegas, Phoenix, Bay Area, San Diego, etc. all at 70-80 mph non-stop. Their is no electric vehicle that could make any of those trips. Electric vehicle popularity and future sales depends on this question never being asked or answered.


I give up...This is like trying to get a straight answer out of a professional politician.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

...
Their are tens of thousands of drivers who travel regularly hundreds of miles at a time in their only personal vehicle....non-stop...LA to Vegas, Phoenix, Bay Area, San Diego, etc. all at 70-80 mph non-stop. Their is no electric vehicle that could make any of those trips. Electric vehicle popularity and future sales depends on this question never being asked or answered.


I give up...This is like trying to get a straight answer out of a professional politician.

The simple answer is, those tens of thousands of people should not consider buying an electric vehicle. But the millions of people who drive less than 30 miles a day on an average day (AAA’s studied number, not mine https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new...torists-drive/) have nothing to lose in considering an electric vehicle. Especially one with more than 200 miles range. Periodic longer range trips can be handled by using public fast charging stations. Not available everywhere, though more are added every day. Or they can simply take a different vehicle. Something I do anyway because I don’t want to be too far from a major city with run-flats and no spare in my Camaro.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by rocket403

At this moment in Ontario the Electric Vehicles don't have the infrastructure set up to handle quick charging, and even regular charging is not available. So I assume that all people that have Tesla's are doing their charging at home. I do a lot of travel with my daughters hockey on the weekends I guess all those trips could be done with the range these EV have but I have no interest in them. My question would be the cost to my electric bill, this is a valid question and only someone who lives in Ontario would understand and be able to answer. With the highest Hydro in North America not sure the cost in my area would make much of a difference when you look a cost per km to drive, most people that I have met that have a Tesla is more about the show than anything. My wife drives 200km a day that adds up to about 55k a year would a EV be able to handle that type of km long term and for how long, right now we turn her cars over every 5 years or so and buy cheap to keep costs down.

Our electric bill for my wife’s car is $40 a month. It is on a separate meter, so that is 100% accurate. Of course that is specific to our local rates (Detroit) and yours will likely be different, as you point out.

As far as handling 55k km per year, the only issue will be battery durability. That will vary depending on the brand of vehicle you would expose to that amount of driving. Other subsystems (brakes, exhaust) have been proven to be lower maintenance than ICE cars. Electric motor braking saves wear and tear on hydro-pneumatic brakes and there is no exhaust system to maintain. In Canada, EV batteries are warrantied for 8 years, 160,000 km, so it sounds like your wife would fall out of warranty after about 3 years of driving (165k km in 3 years of driving).

Early Nissan Leafs had issues with battery warranty, primarily in Arizona and New Mexico. They insisted on air cooling their batteries. The result was a lot of their vehicles experienced significantly reduced range as the batteries deteriorated due to excessive heat. Every other EV that I am aware of water cools their batteries and have experienced no issues with battery life or range degradation or ability to charge. On the Volt forum there are owners with first gen cars (2011 - 2015) that are reporting well over 200k miles with no battery issues. People I know on the Volt team at GM have told me that they are unaware of any Volt battery replacements under warranty or after long term wear. Battery replacements they have handled have been due to vehicles involved in accidents.

I drive between Detroit and Buffalo a lot. So basically, Windsor to Fort Erie. I went to Tesla’s site and used their “map a route” utility and put in Windsor to Fort Erie. It recommended stopping at the Mississauga Tesla Super Charger at the Hamilton-Lime Ridge Mall. 20 chargers available 24/7.

***EDIT***. I just realized that the mall that has the Tesla Superchargers is right off the Lincoln M. Alexander Parkway. Right on my path to and from Buffalo. Go figure.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The simple answer is, those tens of thousands of people should not consider buying an electric vehicle. But the millions of people who drive less than 30 miles a day on an average day (AAA’s studied number, not mine https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new...torists-drive/) have nothing to lose in considering an electric vehicle. Especially one with more than 200 miles range. Periodic longer range trips can be handled by using public fast charging stations. Not available everywhere, though more are added every day. Or they can simply take a different vehicle. Something I do anyway because I don’t want to be too far from a major city with run-flats and no spare in my Camaro.

Thanks for the reply. It's a start. But I think it's problematic trying to get customers to spend 50K-75K on an EV with the understanding that they really can't drive very far if they want to. It's not a good selling point or attractive feature. AAA's statistics are probably very accurate. But that doesn't mean car buyers want to limit themselves to that.

EVs should be required to disclose how many highway miles at highway speeds they can travel on a single charge whether or not charging stations are everywhere, or nowhere. Burying that information in a vague range figure is deceptive at best.


This 400 mile range Rivian that you can drive to go chase bears with, for example. How many of those 400 miles can be traveled at highway speeds to get to these remote off-roading adventures?....and back?...on a single charge?

[90503]

Originally Posted by JerTM

same as the amount of gas stations

I'd always take gas cans in the truck to a place with no stations. What can an EV do?...An extension cord and generator?

[6spdhyperblue]

There’s likely a lot of people that rarely ever need to stop at a gas station twice in one day and that have ever taken a gas can...or have at least one car in the household that meets this requirement

[FenwickHockey65]

Been in Denver this week for work, and the state of Florida, in all its infinite wisdom, chose not to pay for a rental car.


Luckily Denver is a Maven city and GM had a 2017 Tahoe right by our hotel. For short hourly rentals it's not a bad deal, just make the reservation on your phone, use the app to unlock/lock/start the car, gas up on GM's dime if necessary, and return it to its designated parking spot. Honestly like it better than Uber or Lyft since I'm not at the mercy of having to find drivers which can be a challenge in more rural areas.

[ilirg]

Originally Posted by JerTM

same as the amount of gas stations

True, but once you get near the off-road area out in the sticks what's more likely to be accessible, gas station or charging station? Limited to whatever charge you have left before getting to the trail. Easy to throw a gas can in the back, not so sure about a spare battery.