[Gunkk]

Shame the Mustang still isn't available in a high HP convertible. Too bad really, because I really liked the looks of the GT350 (still do) and had it been offered in convertible I'd have bought one before my Z. S550 must be too flimsy a chassis.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes we need to understand that a vehicle that commanded dealer markups for nearly 3 years is a failure, while the vehicle which had to be discontinued at initial offering is a success. New math I guess.

It looks like supply has caught up with demand. It’s pretyy easy to find a discount GT350. Here is one in my area advertised with a $5,600 discount.

https://www.griffinfordfortatkinson....earchDepth=4:5

Comparing the 1LE vs GT350 MSRP prices that I listed earlier, the Ford isn’t a very good value.

What gen6 model was discontinued?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Disaster after disaster?

This thing sold what 150k the first year? That's a pretty clear indicator that this generation Mustang was massively successful. Sure, the sales have dropped off but I still think they are more than the best year of the 6th gen Camaro.

I don't care about sales as long as GM sells enough of them to justify their existence. They can sell 1, 100, 1000, whatever. If they can keep making them then that is the only thing that matters. And I'll ask yet again, show me the profit margins of the Mustang and Camaro and then we'll talk. The S550 sold well due to the EB and base GT sales which the dealerships aggressively sold and next to nothing prices. Sometimes selling them at cost. So if you bought 10 candy bars for $1 each and sold them all for $1.05 a piece, and I bought 10 candy bars for $1 each and sold 5 of them for $1.75 each...catch my drift. Until you can tell me what the profit margins were, then the sales argument means nothing.

And yea, disaster after disaster. Recap:
1- Abysmal performance of the GT for the first 3 years.
2- Shelby oil consumption issues (a quart in 500 miles in some cases).
3- They caught on fire.
4- Having to completely re-do the GT in 18 just to have several of them perform poorly in their first outings, snapping driveshafts and axles.
5- Clutch issues.
6- Overheating Shelbys which caused a CAL against Ford.
7- Ford having to build a PP2 just to keep up with the 1LE.
8- GT500 delays causing the S550 to be extended a full year.
That's just off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Disasters are different to different fan boys. The GT350 not beating the ZL1 is a disaster. If your a Chevy guy. Every magazine writer saying they still prefer the GT350. Is pure nonsense. If your a Chevy guy! The GT being slower than the SS from 15-17 is a disaster. The GT doubling the Camaro sales during that same period is a disaster. So the Ford guys giggle about that. Now the 18 up GT is faster. Chevy guys call it a drivers race. Ford guys call it a murder. The tick is a disaster if your team Chevy. Team Ford hits back with the shudder. The guy two posts up. Comments on the 18 GTs front end. But doesn’t mention the cartoon front end of the 19 Camaro. Even though that front end was so bad. Chevy canceled it after one year. And shipped the remainder of those bumpers to China.

The disasters with the S550 were very evident. You can't hide them or try to deny they exist. Your entire forum is riddled with examples. Am I gonna deny that the Camaro didn't sell well? Depends on what your definition of "well" is. It sold well enough to stay alive and earn profits for GM. That's a fact. The front end was obviously not well received and GM did right by their customers and changed things. So crisis averted. The Mustang is finally faster by about 2 tenths which, according to YOU guys on THIS forum...is a "driver's race". So the only real failure is the front end and GM addressed it. That's ONE issue. I'll throw in visibility and make it 2. Although visibility doesn't bother me and others on here...I'll throw you that bone. So 2 issues to the 8 I thought up on the Mustang.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I have to ask how the ZLE was built as an all around triple threat? It is relatively slow in the 1/4 mile for its hp, reviews have criticized its non track ride as jarring or even worse. So where is the triple coming from. The ZLl is a triple threat machine. The ZLE is a track car that happens to be street legal.

The only problem with the ZLE is that GM programmed more TM into the car than it needed. It has the same HP/TQ as the other LT4s. Therefore you can conclude that it was the programming (which was intentional) and not any issue with the car itself. Considering that it was intentional and is working exactly as it was designed to work, that means there isn't any problem with it at all.

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes we need to understand that a vehicle that commanded dealer markups for nearly 3 years is a failure, while the vehicle which had to be discontinued at initial offering is a success. New math I guess.

Markups on a lesser performing car is a waste of money on the buyer's part. So it doesn't matter to me how much the dealers marked the car up. I'm glad the ZL1 doesn't command a markup. It works out in my favor and that is all that matters to me. I got a faster and better performing car without any of the problems the Shelbys were riddled with and fully optioned for much cheaper than people were getting the standard GT350 for. YEA me!! I hope Camaros never command a premium. And look at how many of us have a ZL1 vs how many of you guys who wander over here have GT350s, LOL!! If the choice came to a $65K ZL1 or a $70K and up non-R GT350...which would you choose??

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

It looks like supply has caught up with demand. It’s pretyy easy to find a discount GT350. Here is one in my area advertised with a $5,600 discount.

https://www.griffinfordfortatkinson....earchDepth=4:5

Comparing the 1LE vs GT350 MSRP prices that I listed earlier, the Ford isn’t a very good value.

What gen6 model was discontinued?

He misspelled "discounted". He wrote "discontinued", which was him misspelling "discounted" but what he meant was "rebates". Ford offers tons of rebates on the Mustang...dropping them down to cost, and even below cost in lots of cases. But when the Camaro has a rebate it is suddenly a "discount"...lol!! So I guess I got my ZL1 with a $3K "discount"!!!!

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

He misspelled "discounted". He wrote "discontinued", which was him misspelling "discounted" but what he meant was "rebates". Ford offers tons of rebates on the Mustang...dropping them down to cost, and even below cost in lots of cases. But when the Camaro has a rebate it is suddenly a "discount"...lol!! So I guess I got my ZL1 with a $3K "discount"!!!!

gotha. Good grief. The Mustang has been discounted and fleet sold since the beginning. IIRC, over 25% fleet with overall bottom of the barrel average transaction price

Bottom line is that in the S550 generation, the Mustang has been a poor performance value. Over priced and under delivered. Even the 18 GT is a mixed bag of A10 options that can produce performance and posers. The M6 still doesn’t compete. Hugely popular with fleet customers and golden girls in the watered, cheap variants however.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Disasters are different to different fan boys. The GT350 not beating the ZL1 is a disaster. If your a Chevy guy. Every magazine writer saying they still prefer the GT350. Is pure nonsense. If your a Chevy guy! The GT being slower than the SS from 15-17 is a disaster. The GT doubling the Camaro sales during that same period is a disaster. So the Ford guys giggle about that. Now the 18 up GT is faster. Chevy guys call it a drivers race. Ford guys call it a murder. The tick is a disaster if your team Chevy. Team Ford hits back with the shudder. The guy two posts up. Comments on the 18 GTs front end. But doesn’t mention the cartoon front end of the 19 Camaro. Even though that front end was so bad. Chevy canceled it after one year. And shipped the remainder of those bumpers to China.

Damn, you make a lot of sense. Good post.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Not sure why people keep bringing up sales. Doesn't necessarily make a car good or bad. Ford's profit margins are atrocious. They offload a lot of vehicles to fleet. Look at their financial reports.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

Not sure why people keep bringing up sales. Doesn't necessarily make a car good or bad. Ford's profit margins are atrocious. They offload a lot of vehicles to fleet. Look at their financial reports.

Sales are important. Because I remember the 2003-2009 Camaro. Or the Dodge 3000gt. Or the Mitsubishi eclipse. Etc. Etc. None of the cars mentioned were good or bad cars. But they did go away due to sales. The S550s stellar sales numbers guarantee a 7th gen Mustang. The less then stellar Camaro sales have a lot of people worried. That there won’t be a 7th gen Camaro. Not being brand loyal myself. I want a 7th gen made. Having options is in every automotive enthusiast best interest.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Sales are important. Because I remember the 2003-2009 Camaro. Or the Dodge 3000gt. Or the Mitsubishi eclipse. Etc. Etc. None of the cars mentioned were good or bad cars. But they did go away due to sales. The S550s stellar sales numbers guarantee a 7th gen Mustang. The less then stellar Camaro sales have a lot of people worried. That there won’t be a 7th gen Camaro. Not being brand loyal myself. I want a 7th gen made. Having options is in every automotive enthusiast best interest.

Anyone who thinks a Camaro selling 60k in a year isn't profitable needs to have their head examined.

Most of the "worried" are trolling Ford boys.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Sales are important. Because I remember the 2003-2009 Camaro. Or the Dodge 3000gt. Or the Mitsubishi eclipse. Etc. Etc. None of the cars mentioned were good or bad cars. But they did go away due to sales. The S550s stellar sales numbers guarantee a 7th gen Mustang. The less then stellar Camaro sales have a lot of people worried. That there won’t be a 7th gen Camaro. Not being brand loyal myself. I want a 7th gen made. Having options is in every automotive enthusiast best interest.

I can assure you Camaro did not go away because of sales. Sales would have been third or fourth in the list of reasons why Camaro and Firebird went away. At the time I was the Director of Powertrain Planning at GM. I was responsible for working with Powertrain Engineering and each of the vehicle platform teams to determine which vehicles got which engines and transmissions and when they got them.

The primary reason Camaro went away was because the F-Body platform used for the Gen 4 cars would not pass new NHTSA crash regulations. There was also an issue with getting the cars capable of contributing to stricter fuel economy standards. GM did not have an appropriate RWD architecture to build the car on. There were two choices.... The new for 2002 Sigma architecture which was reserved for Cadillac RWD programs, or the Zeta platform out of Australia. There was a lot of energy put into getting it on Sigma, but at the end of the day, it was too expensive and the volume for Sigma was almost totally spoken for between CTS, STS, and SRX. There were also two other programs that never came to market that were in line ahead of Camaro to use Sigma. That is the only time sales and/or profitability would have been a real factor in the discussion. The other two programs would have had better profitability and would have fit better, in terms of volume, than Camaro. In fact, Camaro was actually forecast for higher volume. More than was left in the module after CTS, STS, and SRX.

Zeta wouldn’t work because of restrictions on how many vehicles could be imported from Australia. Eventually, GM did decide to import Pontiac GTO, Pontiac G8, and Chevrolet SS from Australia on the Zeta architecture.

Along the way, there was this little episode with cutting brands (Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Hummer) and then bankruptcy. Even through all that, there were always proposals on the table for bringing back Camaro. Eventually, the decision was made to build a module of Zeta architecture in Canada instead of continuing to import small volumes of Zeta from Australia. That is how Gen 5 Camaro came about.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

Anyone who thinks a Camaro selling 60k in a year isn't profitable needs to have their head examined.

Most of the "worried" are trolling Ford boys.

Got ya, Gotta give Ford fan boys credit. All those threads in the general section. That get moved to the sales section. Asking if GM is killing off the Camaro? Or why are sales so bad? Some of those fan boys have did their leg work. Cause there is a lot of people commenting on those threads. I guess they all need their heads examined. Or just stop trolling.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I can assure you Camaro did not go away because of sales. Sales would have been third or fourth in the list of reasons why Camaro and Firebird went away. At the time I was the Director of Powertrain Planning at GM. I was responsible for working with Powertrain Engineering and each of the vehicle platform teams to determine which vehicles got which engines and transmissions and when they got them.

The primary reason Camaro went away was because the F-Body platform used for the Gen 4 cars would not pass new NHTSA crash regulations. There was also an issue with getting the cars capable of contributing to stricter fuel economy standards. GM did not have an appropriate RWD architecture to build the car on. There were two choices.... The new for 2002 Sigma architecture which was reserved for Cadillac RWD programs, or the Zeta platform out of Australia. There was a lot of energy put into getting it on Sigma, but at the end of the day, it was too expensive and the volume for Sigma was almost totally spoken for between CTS, STS, and SRX. There were also two other programs that never came to market that were in line ahead of Camaro to use Sigma. That is the only time sales and/or profitability would have been a real factor in the discussion. The other two programs would have had better profitability and would have fit better, in terms of volume, than Camaro. In fact, Camaro was actually forecast for higher volume. More than was left in the module after CTS, STS, and SRX.

Zeta wouldn’t work because of restrictions on how many vehicles could be imported from Australia. Eventually, GM did decide to import Pontiac GTO, Pontiac G8, and Chevrolet SS from Australia on the Zeta architecture.

Along the way, there was this little episode with cutting brands (Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Hummer) and then bankruptcy. Even through all that, there were always proposals on the table for bringing back Camaro. Eventually, the decision was made to build a module of Zeta architecture in Canada instead of continuing to import small volumes of Zeta from Australia. That is how Gen 5 Camaro came about.

Its always interesting to hear people talk about this subject. Some say it was a union conflict in Canada that doomed the Camaro. Some say sales. You offer a different explanation. But my question is then? Did GM recently cut several makes of automobiles out completely due to sales? Or is there more behind the scenes going on. That is forcing GM to close North American plants? Normal logic would dictate. That if GM could kill off 5 different makes of cars for what ever reason? They would have no issue cutting out other under performing product. Ford had no issue at all cutting out their entire car line up.minus the Mustang. So I’m sure people can understand the concern for the Camaros long term viability. The Corvette is to GM. What the Mustang is to Ford. I don’t claim to know a lot about the automotive industry. My profession is in the oil industry. The only industry more shady than automotive.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

[/COLOR]

Got ya, Gotta give Ford fan boys credit. All those threads in the general section. That get moved to the sales section. Asking if GM is killing off the Camaro? Or why are sales so bad? Some of those fan boys have did their leg work. Cause there is a lot of people commenting on those threads. I guess they all need their heads examined. Or just stop trolling.

The Camaro is about 2% of total sales for GM, so I don’t think they build the Camaro to keep them afloat and worry about profits.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

The Camaro is about 2% of total sales for GM, so I don’t think they build the Camaro to keep them afloat and worry about profits.

Got it. They build them for shits and giggles. Solid business plan.