[ember1205]

Originally Posted by rcoe

Quite a bit of mis-information here. For towing does not matter what your brother's friend towed with his easily or how much power the engine does or does not have. Certainly does not matter if it is a 4WD, actually that will lower it. The more a tow vehicle ways the less it will be rated to tow, my King Ranch F350 is rated to tow less than the exact same truck with the stripped interior simply because all the interior goodies weigh much more.

GVWR = the max weight of the vehicle, nothing to do with the trailer.

How to Calculate Towing Capacity
To calculate your vehicle’s towing capacity, you’ll need to know the full GCVWR — Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating — of the vehicle you plan to tow with and the trailer you plan to tow, together with all the cargo each will carry, from people to wiper fluid.

Then you’ll need to know your tow vehicle’s curb weight – the weight of the tow vehicle itself when filled with gas and all the other fluids it consumes while driving.

Subtracting the curb weight from the GCVWR gives you the vehicle’s towing capacity. Manufacturers will stress that you should never exceed your vehicle’s towing capacity. We would add that, for safety reasons, it’s best to never come within 10% of that total.


This truck pulling an enclosed trailer with a 4k car would certainly be quite a bit over it's rating. It would certainly pull it, but ratings were put in place to protect you and others on the road in the case of an emergency stop or some sort of other unplanned incident.

Does it really matter? Not unless something happens.

Wow. Talk about misinformation.

First of all, the weight of the two vehicle has a relationship to the amount of weight the vehicle will be rated to tow, and HEAVIER weights for the tow vehicle itself will lead to HEAVIER tow ratings up to the limits of what the tow vehicle can actually handle based on the construction of the vehicle. You're never going to get a 2000 lb tow vehicle rated to tow 15000 pounds.

Second of all, your comment that nothing matters unless something happens is 100% irresponsible.

Third, the tow vehicle in question will be able to tow an enclosed trailer with a car in it and be within the rated numbers so long as the hitch that gets installed meets the requirements as well.

The rest of what you wrote has all been covered already, so I don't know why you're reiterating it like you're the first one to bring any of it up.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

..Curb wieght is weight of vehicle as it left the factory including all fluids/full tank of fuel


..Payload is weight of all combined items you put in or on the truck, including people, covers, cell phone, anything not from the factory, including the 100lb WDH and the tongue weight.


GVWR is curb weight + payload


..combined is max weight of truck and trailer fully loaded.

WDH are not magical. But are great tools.



99% of the time you will run out of payload before you ever hit max towing.

Correct - WDH are not some sort of silver bullet. Using one when appropriate and using it correctly can allow one to get much closer to the towing capacity.

In the case of -some- of the trucks out there, a WDH is needed when trying to tow at or above about 60% of the rated capacity. It's important to know when one is necessary.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Correct - WDH are not some sort of silver bullet. Using one when appropriate and using it correctly can allow one to get much closer to the towing capacity.

In the case of -some- of the trucks out there, a WDH is needed when trying to tow at or above about 60% of the rated capacity. It's important to know when one is necessary.

Agreed but people treat them like magical items that somehow mean you can tow what you should not be towing. RAM states 5000lb+ trailer and you should use a WDH.and proper set up of the WDH and trailer are KEY to safe towing

[BlackbeastSS2]

Originally Posted by rcoe

GVWR = the max weight of the vehicle, nothing to do with the trailer.

How to Calculate Towing Capacity
To calculate your vehicle’s towing capacity, you’ll need to know the full GCVWR — Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating — of the vehicle you plan to tow with and the trailer you plan to tow, together with all the cargo each will carry, from people to wiper fluid.

After all the suggestions and info I will be planning to get a new light weight aluminum trailer 1620lbs which will keep me well within the vehicles GVWR and towing capacity. A good hitch rated at 12K and will put on a trans cooler to help keep the transmission cooler, the vehicle does have a tow package with an overdrive. A front chin/stone protector for trailer will be installed as well.

Thanks for everyone’s input.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by BlackbeastSS2

All good info from everyone. Thank you.

Edited:
After checking sticker on door jam and manual I have to stay at suggested manufacture GVWR of 6400 lbs which is combined weight of trailer, car on trailer, and anything else I put in truck bins or trailer.

The open aluminum 16 foot trailer weighs in at 1620 lbs plus car 4,000 (estimate) going to the scales at later date. That’s 5620 lbs

So I have 720lbs for tools, parts, whatever.

It does say max towing capacity is 9700lbs for my vehicle in manual and on a GM site but maybe my sticker is taking in the account of a heavier truck with the service truck compartments.
The axle rating is fine, it’s a 4x4.

Further Edited:
Okay I am trying to understand GVWR vrs towing capacity.
My GVWR is 6400. If I stay within in that weight for just the truck not counting the trailer then I am good for my towing capacity which is 9700. Is this correct in how I am interrupting the GVWR vrs towing capacity?

Ok...take the truck and fill it up with fuel. Hit a CAT sacle. 6400 GVWR minus the CAT number is all the extra weight you can have in the truck. Including passengers, gear, WDH and tongue weight. It will runout fast.



For instance you use the 10 to 12% tongue calculation when towing an RV so if said rv weighs 10000lbs you should have 1000 to 1200 lbs of tongue weight. That comes off of payload.


Payload is GVWR minus actual weight of truck. I will bet money if you put that truck on a scale you will be shocked

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Agreed but people treat them like magical items that somehow mean you can tow what you should not be towing. RAM states 5000lb+ trailer and you should use a WDH.and proper set up of the WDH and trailer are KEY to safe towing

You mean sort of like how so many people say "just throw air bags in and you're fine" without any sort of consideration to the fact that they ALSO aren't magical? lol

Originally Posted by BlackbeastSS2

After all the suggestions and info I will be planning to get a new light weight aluminum trailer 1620lbs which will keep me well within the vehicles GVWR and towing capacity. A good hitch rated at 12K and will put on a trans cooler to help keep the transmission cooler, the vehicle does have a tow package with an overdrive. A front chin/stone protector for trailer will be installed as well.

Thanks for everyone’s input.

How much more would a steel one weigh? My recollection is that it isn't massive - maybe a few hundred pounds? They're considerably less expensive and will often last a lot longer as well. Plus, with steel car haulers, you -should- have more options for strong anchor points as well as easily being able to weld on D-Rings or similar if you need to.

[FlukeSS]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Ok...take the truck and fill it up with fuel. Hit a CAT sacle. 6400 GVWR minus the CAT number is all the extra weight you can have in the truck. Including passengers, gear, WDH and tongue weight. It will runout fast.



For instance you use the 10 to 12% tongue calculation when towing an RV so if said rv weighs 10000lbs you should have 1000 to 1200 lbs of tongue weight. That comes off of payload.


Payload is GVWR minus actual weight of truck. I will bet money if you put that truck on a scale you will be shocked

This is all true but higher weight capacity hitches can offset the tongue weight and free up the space in a manner of speaking.

So you have a 12000lbs hitch MOST of the weight goes on the trailer axles in that case (depending on what the trailer axles can handle)

The rest up to your 1000-1200lbs tongue weight includes whatever you put in the bed of the truck.

That's why hitch type matters to offset tongue weights on vehicles with a better/more sturdy trailer.

So your 1600lbs trailer you might want to consider the axles, or step up on the trailer options to get a heavier duty trailer... IF that becomes necessary. The OP did say money really isn't an issue if I remember right.

So he can get an enclosed trailer with better axles and still be fine for his tongue weight.



lol I realize we ALL are probably over analyzing the situation for the OP.

But there are great details to be learned in this thread either way.

In general OP 1600lbs trailer is fine and dandy, check the axle weight limitations though the more you can put on the trailer the more you can free up your tongue weight.

So the fact you are getting 12000LBS hitch gives you options to get a better heavier duty enclosed trailer if you really want to.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by FlukeSS

This is all true but higher weight capacity hitches can offset the tongue weight and free up the space in a manner of speaking.

So you have a 12000lbs hitch MOST of the weight goes on the trailer axles in that case (depending on what the trailer axles can handle)

The rest up to your 1000-1200lbs tongue weight includes whatever you put in the bed of the truck.

That's why hitch type matters to offset tongue weights on vehicles with a better/more sturdy trailer.

So your 1600lbs trailer you might want to consider the axles, or step up on the trailer options to get a heavier duty trailer... IF that becomes necessary.

There needs to be a certain percentage of the total weight of trailer and load carried by the tow vehicle as tongue weight. Reducing the amount too far prevents enough weight being carried on the rear axle to where acceleration could become impossible and stability would decrease as well. Too much of a percentage and you'll start lifting weight -off- of the front making steering (handling) difficult. Tongue weight needs to stay consistent as a percentage of total trailer weight, regardless of the hitch.

Depending the hitch and receiver combo, WHERE that weight transfers to the truck can vary a bit (in terms of how far behind the axle). That's really the only way to alter actual tongue weight percentage because that distance is will multiple the weight differently as the distance changes.

[FlukeSS]

Originally Posted by ember1205

There needs to be a certain percentage of the total weight of trailer and load carried by the tow vehicle as tongue weight. Reducing the amount too far prevents enough weight being carried on the rear axle to where acceleration could become impossible and stability would decrease as well. Too much of a percentage and you'll start lifting weight -off- of the front making steering (handling) difficult. Tongue weight needs to stay consistent as a percentage of total trailer weight, regardless of the hitch.

Depending the hitch and receiver combo, WHERE that weight transfers to the truck can vary a bit (in terms of how far behind the axle). That's really the only way to alter actual tongue weight percentage because that distance is will multiple the weight differently as the distance changes.

That's not really an issue. Most of these trucks can handle upwards of 1000-1500lbs in the bed of the truck AND pull up to 10,000lbs or more.

When I made that statement I simply meant get a better trailer with heavier duty axles to free up weight on the tongue if need be. He can still put 200lbs of that 700lbs into the trailer and the other 500lbs into the bed of the truck

The heavier duty trailer axles provide that versatility where as his 1600lbs trailer may not be able to carry much more than the car itself then he has to dump 720lbs of stuff into the bed of his truck or more if he has that much to bring with him.

Then you have to consider space for all the equipment as well. In my case if I were to bring my car to the track I'd have 3 sets of wheels and 12 tires to bring with me for example.

Edit: The tongue weight is not really as important to pull a trailer that is weighted down. As I mentioned earlier I pulled almost 11000lbs with no tongue weight. But I had the tires to do it in mud while my friend did not. What I mean is you are trading tongue weight limitations for towing capacity offset. You can tow without tongue weight, but you cannot tow with a lot of tongue weight. That is when you see people with their ass end suspension sitting on the ground they are over their tongue weight when that weight should be added to the trailer not the tongue.

Hope that makes sense, I tend to be long winded sometimes sorry about that.

[ZL1plumbin]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Actually, weight guidelines apply to everyone. Once you're hauling for money, things get more stringent and it isn't necessarily tied to weight (although being above certain weights could require DOT placards).

I should have clarified. What I meant is you could still be within the ratings for the towing capacity of the truck and combined trailer weight BUT if you’re over a certain weight and using it for business without a CDL etc. it gets messy.

It’s really screwed up to be honest. Fed and state laws. For some reason 26,000lbs combined sticks in my head. BUT from what I understand as long as you were within the ratings for your vehicle/trailer combo and towing as a civilian you’re fine.

Example. You could have a 3500 dually and tow 37k lbs.

Do that in business without the proper dot/CDL etc it’s gonna cost you a fortune.

[FarmerFran]

My suggestion,

Find a good tow forum and listen to those guys. Get it setup properly, drive slower than usual and mind yourself.

Think of it the same way as racing your car; you make sure the brakes, tires, lug torque, oil are all good... think of towing like that, make sure you and everyone around you are safe!

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by FlukeSS

That's not really an issue. Most of these trucks can handle upwards of 1000-1500lbs in the bed of the truck AND pull up to 10,000lbs or more.

When I made that statement I simply meant get a better trailer with heavier duty axles to free up weight on the tongue if need be. He can still put 200lbs of that 700lbs into the trailer and the other 500lbs into the bed of the truck

The heavier duty trailer axles provide that versatility where as his 1600lbs trailer may not be able to carry much more than the car itself then he has to dump 720lbs of stuff into the bed of his truck or more if he has that much to bring with him.

Then you have to consider space for all the equipment as well. In my case if I were to bring my car to the track I'd have 3 sets of wheels and 12 tires to bring with me for example.

Edit: The tongue weight is not really as important to pull a trailer that is weighted down. As I mentioned earlier I pulled almost 11000lbs with no tongue weight. But I had the tires to do it in mud while my friend did not. What I mean is you are trading tongue weight limitations for towing capacity offset. You can tow without tongue weight, but you cannot tow with a lot of tongue weight. That is when you see people with their ass end suspension sitting on the ground they are over their tongue weight when that weight should be added to the trailer not the tongue.

Hope that makes sense, I tend to be long winded sometimes sorry about that.

I think I follow the gist of where you're going, but some of what you wrote is in line with what I saw trying to say as well.

Generally, you want to target something like 15% of the total gross trailer weight for tongue weight. This is "heavy enough" to ensure the rear wheels stay on the ground with good traction and "light enough" that you aren't also lifting weight off of the front axle. For a 10k gross trailer weight, that would mean roughly 1500 lbs (give or take) which is right in line with what you're saying.

When you described pulling 11k with no tongue weight, I believe you were basically describing dragging the entire load over a short distance (think "recovery" as opposed to actual longer distance towing). Additionally, you were effectively adding your own traction to the overall construct. So, while there was 11k of weight behind you, the "original" tow vehicle was contributing to some portion of that once -IT- started to gain its own traction.

The primary point I was trying to convey is that, regardless of the weight of the loaded trailer, one should target somewhere around 15% of that total weight to be on the tongue of the trailer. That helps with steering, braking, acceleration, and overall smoothness of towing (too little tongue weight, for example, and the trailer will be walking back and forth behind you).

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by ZL1plumbin

I should have clarified. What I meant is you could still be within the ratings for the towing capacity of the truck and combined trailer weight BUT if you’re over a certain weight and using it for business without a CDL etc. it gets messy.

It’s really screwed up to be honest. Fed and state laws. For some reason 26,000lbs combined sticks in my head. BUT from what I understand as long as you were within the ratings for your vehicle/trailer combo and towing as a civilian you’re fine.

Example. You could have a 3500 dually and tow 37k lbs.

Do that in business without the proper dot/CDL etc it’s gonna cost you a fortune.

Understood.

Once you're "for hire", I think the rules change regardless of weights.

On the flip side, a 12k trailer requires DOT placards and all of the commercial stuff UNLESS you are able to get a waiver as non-commercial which will also require large letters on the trailer (and the tow vehicle?) that say NOT FOR HIRE.

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I would expect a good Weight Distributing Hitch would be a lot less money that replacing the truck and opens up the ability to drag a heavier overall trailer (trailer+cargo). Have you looked into that as an option?

Nah, I'm just looking for an excuse to upgrade.