[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Zodiac

We aren't talking about top sports cars. We are talking about SS and GT.

Look at the stopping tests for example on the SS vs GT in edmunds.

GT- 118 ft
SS- 105 ft

The Camaro has brembos all around and much better tires and is lighter.
GT has the base brakes. Not even the brembo since it's not a PP.

So 13 feet for having far superior brakes, better tires, and less weight? You throw equal tires on the GT and watch that number decline. Will it match it? Nope.

When you step up to lightweight, high performance cars capable of 200+ mph and ludicrous acceleration everything goes. You need every bit you can get.

Again it seems you want to just argue for the sake of arguing. I never said there was no benefit, I said the difference isn't going to be as drastic as people are making it out to be.

I don’t know about you, but 13’ is huge. Also, what info you have that the runflats are so much better then the GT p-zeros all season tires? The GT fronts were wider then the SS, which is most of the stopping. As far as weight goes, there isn’t much between the two.

[JamesNoBrakes]

People don't even realize that Brembo makes all sorts of OEM non-monoblock brakes and rotors. People think Brembo=monoblock.

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

I don’t know about you, but 13’ is huge. Also, what info you have that the runflats are so much better then the GT p-zeros all season tires? The GT fronts were wider then the SS, which is most of the stopping. As far as weight goes, there isn’t much between the two.

Huh? The SS is running a performance summer tire, it will always perform better than an A/S. You are right about the width of the tires, thought the SS was 255/275. Not to mention p/zero all season are garbage tires.

I haven't seen weight info on an 18 GT so I can't comment but it won't be lighter than 17 GT and the SS is lighter.

Plus I'm sure the Camaro chassis aids in it's ability to transfer everything as well, it's much better overall.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Zodiac

Huh? The SS is running a performance summer tire, it will always perform better than an A/S. You are right about the width of the tires, thought the SS was 255/275. Not to mention p/zero all season are garbage tires.

I haven't seen weight info on an 18 GT so I can't comment but it won't be lighter than 17 GT and the SS is lighter.

Plus I'm sure the Camaro chassis aids in it's ability to transfer everything as well, it's much better overall.

Not all performance summer tires are great tires. Just ask the gtpp guys. Also, reviews on the SS tires are not the greatest either. I have all season DWS06 on my vette, and they handle great. Problem with summer tires, they need to be heated to work the best.

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Not all performance summer tires are great tires. Just ask the gtpp guys. Also, reviews on the SS tires are not the greatest either. I have all season DWS06 on my vette, and they handle great. Problem with summer tires, they need to be heated to work the best.

Well in the sake of this argument, the SS tires are far better than those POS pirelli on the GT.

The DWS06 is a great tire. It's on the list with the Cooper G1's as the replacement of my stock tires.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Zodiac

Well in the sake of this argument, the SS tires are far better than those POS pirelli on the GT.

The DWS06 is a great tire. It's on the list with the Cooper G1's as the replacement of my stock tires.

The SS tires are also better than the Pirelli Summer tires that came on the GT PP previous to the 18. But let's be honest here: The 3.55 gear and MPSS will help the GT PP a little. But the differences between the PP and the base car so far with both having A10 is small. So far only a tenth or so. MT has a manual PP and a 1LE. So we will see what they have to say.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

The SS tires are also better than the Pirelli Summer tires that came on the GT PP previous to the 18. But let's be honest here: The 3.55 gear and MPSS will help the GT PP a little. But the differences between the PP and the base car so far with both having A10 is small. So far only a tenth or so. MT has a manual PP and a 1LE. So we will see what they have to say.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Not all performance summer tires are great tires. Just ask the gtpp guys. Also, reviews on the SS tires are not the greatest either. I have all season DWS06 on my vette, and they handle great. Problem with summer tires, they need to be heated to work the best.

IMO the new Pilot PS4 are best summer tire (with a 220 above wear), I think that is on the Ford PP2. (edit the PP2 are sports cup 2 at 180 wear... no thanks, I'm sure they are great tires).. Compared to my OEM F1 rubber the Pilots can just about take WOT in 1st gear while the OEM rubber, 1st gear could take only about 1/2 throttle with FBO. Needed to wait till the middle of 2nd. That is a huge difference if we are talking 0-60 or 1/4 mile. Gut feeling and I'm .25 faster with Pilots vs OEM rubber...

I would like to see a GM 1/4 mile pack: 10.9 rear diff with gear based LSD, ZL1 shafts and clutch, 4.10 gears, 305 Pilots PS4 on 11" wide rins in the rear. Stock SS brake size, stock 245 up front on Pilots. Call it a Drag Pack for $1999.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by hotlap

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Zodiac

We aren't talking about top sports cars. We are talking about SS and GT.

Look at the stopping tests for example on the SS vs GT in edmunds.

GT- 118 ft
SS- 105 ft

The Camaro has brembos all around and much better tires and is lighter.
GT has the base brakes. Not even the brembo since it's not a PP.

So 13 feet for having far superior brakes, better tires, and less weight? You throw equal tires on the GT and watch that number decline. Will it match it? Nope.

When you step up to lightweight, high performance cars capable of 200+ mph and ludicrous acceleration everything goes. You need every bit you can get.

Again it seems you want to just argue for the sake of arguing. I never said there was no benefit, I said the difference isn't going to be as drastic as people are making it out to be.

The Camaro isn't THAT much lighter than the GT. Comparing the lightest SS to the lightest GT and the Camaro might be lighter by about 15 pounds...if I remember it correctly.

As far as top sports cars, the Camaro is up there with all but the forced induction (or Vipers) top cars. They both are certainly on a level where it is needed. Matter of fact the 5th Gen SS had them at all four corners and they aren't even close to the 6th Gen in performance. Ford not putting them on has nothing to do with them not needing the performance. They clearly do.

[BlaqWhole]

So right now the brakes aren't a big deal. But when the SS again out performs the GT by a large margin the Mustang boys will then be talking about the brakes.

And again with the tires. These cars, especially the SS, are more than just an awesome tire. Throw a good tire on the GT and the Camaro would still be ahead. Or let me ask, how can Ford justify the price which is very similar (within a few bucks in some cases), yet they have less options and threw such an inferior tire on it? Why did they have to make all these PP1, PP2 changes to the car if it all came down to just throwing a set of tires on it? You're saying they could have saved a shitload of money and got the GT to handle as well as the SS does if they had just thrown a better tire on it? So why the hell do they need these additional packages and drag modes and options?

[Fox9350]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

how can Ford justify the price which is very similar (within a few bucks in some cases), yet they have less options and threw such an inferior tire on it? Why did they have to make all these PP1, PP2 changes to the car if it all came down to just throwing a set of tires on it? You're saying they could have saved a shitload of money and got the GT to handle as well as the SS does if they had just thrown a better tire on it? So why the hell do they need these additional packages and drag modes and options?

Because they can. The Mustang has a much stronger history and following. The car literally commands a higher premium. You can credibly argue the Camaro presents a better performance value and I’ll give you that. In the end these companies are in it to make money. If they could charge 100k for a Mustang GT they would. It’s all the market. People are willing to pay more for a Mustang. GM has to do incentives, price drops, etc to even try to compete sales wise, and thy fall short often. Just is what it is. Kind of like how Ferraris are more expensive and slightly less performance more often than not to Lamborghini’s which are like the garish loud cousin at the family reunion trying to be noticed. You think Ferrari enthusiasts give a shit if is some gaudy huracan is a tenth faster?

Anyway I still find it bizarre we’re using a non PP GT with shitty tires and SHITTY REAR GEARS optioned out with whatever brought the MSRP to 49k in non performances items from edmunds who soccer moms read for mini van reviews as a bench test worthy of criticism. Aside from the laughably bad and wrong 0-60 the 12.6 is probably not far off for that exact trim and hardly embarrassing. Given the weather, track condition, driver and fact you can launch the car a hundred different ways with the modes and sett8ngs, my guess is it maxes out at 12.4 in that trim.

Again I expect to see the best neutral magazines will get 12.2-12.4 in the PP1 with A10 @ 118-120, and I expect the fast list of enthusiasts to be 11.6-12.0 @ 117-121 which would make it better than the current camaro by a hair but pretty much neck and neck....not sure how any of this is a fail in a mid cycle refresh. Car screams and looks better and sells better. Not losing sleep about the camaro even if it does come in faster or the next one pushes the bar a little further. You can keep your push rod much larger displacement engine which makes similar or less power and have fun.

I’d buy a 2015-2017 mustang over any camaro at same price now, knowing it’s slower, why? Because I like mustangs and don’t like camaros. Most people agree.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Fox9350

Because they can. The Mustang has a much stronger history and following. The car literally commands a higher premium. You can credibly argue the Camaro presents a better performance value and I’ll give you that. In the end these companies are in it to make money. If they could charge 100k for a Mustang GT they would. It’s all the market. People are willing to pay more for a Mustang. GM has to do incentives, price drops, etc to even try to compete sales wise, and thy fall short often. Just is what it is. Kind of like how Ferraris are more expensive and slightly less performance more often than not to Lamborghini’s which are like the garish loud cousin at the family reunion trying to be noticed. You think Ferrari enthusiasts give a shit if is some gaudy huracan is a tenth faster?

Anyway I still find it bizarre we’re using a non PP GT with shitty tires and SHITTY REAR GEARS optioned out with whatever brought the MSRP to 49k in non performances items from edmunds who soccer moms read for mini van reviews as a bench test worthy of criticism. Aside from the laughably bad and wrong 0-60 the 12.6 is probably not far off for that exact trim and hardly embarrassing. Given the weather, track condition, driver and fact you can launch the car a hundred different ways with the modes and sett8ngs, my guess is it maxes out at 12.4 in that trim.

Again I expect to see the best neutral magazines will get 12.2-12.4 in the PP1 with A10 @ 118-120, and I expect the fast list of enthusiasts to be 11.6-12.0 @ 117-121 which would make it better than the current camaro by a hair but pretty much neck and neck....not sure how any of this is a fail in a mid cycle refresh. Car screams and looks better and sells better. Not losing sleep about the camaro even if it does come in faster or the next one pushes the bar a little further. You can keep your push rod much larger displacement engine which makes similar or less power and have fun.

I’d buy a 2015-2017 mustang over any camaro at same price now, knowing it’s slower, why? Because I like mustangs and don’t like camaros. Most people agree.

11.6 sec @ 121 mph for a stock GT A10? Wow!

[Fox9350]

Originally Posted by hotlap

11.6 sec @ 121 mph for a stock GT A10? Wow!

Haha. Ok might be a reach but Evan ran 11.8x at 120....cars been out 3 weeks ?