[IrishCoffee]

Originally Posted by TJay74

Actually rotating side to side will help with wear, it will reduce and or eliminate the outer tread block cupping.

It also helps a lot when you are running at the track because most tracks will put heavier wear on one side of the car. I like to rotate side to side mid day.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

I'm very much aware that they are asymmetrical and have a defined "inside" and "outside" orientation but I flip them regardless. They still work just fine flipped.

That is a TERRIBLE idea!!! As correctly mentioned below. Tires are designed with specific tread patterns and even varying compounds across the contact patch. You essentially are now skating around on the part of the tire that is only meant to perform under hard cornering in dry weather. Because of the negative camber your outer shoulder (should be inner) won't help you with your wet traction because all your weight is on the inner shoulder (should be outer)

Originally Posted by pbsinternet1le

Uneducated guess here but i would bet the tread pattern is for water dispersion.. and that the pattern does not effect much in dry conditions.. just a guess.

True. Also if goodyear is using a similar construction to the Michelins then its very possible the "wet" section of tread pattern is also a different compound specifically designed for cruising and water dispersion.

Originally Posted by Marshsram

More than likely you are correct. The G3 uses large, stiff outer blocks with low void ratio to put as much rubber on the ground under cornering load. It also increases the tread's rigidity and reduces tread squirm which ultimately feels more responsive and communicative under load but as you pointed out it has to compromise somewhere- in this case it looks like hydroplaning resistance.

Some asymmetrical tires like a Bridgestone RE-11 use asymmetrical casings as well. For example the RE-11 uses a softer more rounded sidewall on the inside for maximum comfort and a stiffer straighter sidewall on the outside for better feedback and wear on track. However, I've flipped those too and had no real issues. They feel a little different once flipped as you would imagine but it's not as big of a difference as most people seem to think... contrary to popular belief the car will not explode into flames the second you drive out of the garage on flipped tires haha. Most asymmetrical tires use a symmetrical casing so it's even less noticeable with those (pretty sure this is the case with the G3 on these cars).

Hit the nail on the head! No the car won't burst into flames but it makes as much sense as taking rotational tires and putting them on backwards. You're completely trashing all the engineering work that went into the tread design. If you're doing that why even have performance tires at all? Just go pick up the cheapest available tire.

Originally Posted by BrianInJackson

OK... If you don't dismount the tire, and just swap side to side... you aren't doing anything.. The portion of the tire on the outside... is still on the outside, just on the other side of the car. The large blocks on the outside are there for traction (in the dry) so dismounting and swapping will help even out wear... but that is not the right thing to do. You don't want the large blocks on the inside. The tires are not designed to run that way. Can you? sure.. but don't.. You will be creating more problems.

The best/only fix... Get an alignment done. Stock alignment does not have the camber needed to track the car. Stock alignment is set to maximize tire wear for the average driver. Going to the track is not "average".

Read TJay74's post below. He's right. However I also suggest the alignment for anyone who is unhappy with shoulder wear. Max out the camber.

Originally Posted by TJay74

Actually rotating side to side will help with wear, it will reduce and or eliminate the outer tread block cupping.

Correct. I actually flipped mine because my Autocrosses seemed to wear down my left side more than my right and with about 1k miles since the flip the cupping is almost completely gone and the wear side to side seems to be evening out.

[Marshsram]

Typically the plan of attack is to start with rotating first- pull the wheels and swap them from side to side in order to even out the wear left to right. THEN once both sides are worn similarly (albeit much more shoulder wear than inner wear in your case) you have the option to flip them and keep going or spend $1300-$2000 for a new set of tires. I usually flip and almost always recommend doing so if the wear is very uneven but it's your car and your money so do as you please.

I also advise you take a mental note of what happened and after how many events so you can better understand how your car uses tires on the tracks you frequent. Rotating in between each and every event will usually net you very even wear (meaning similar wear patterns and rates across the left and right sides). Not rotating will usually kill one or two tires very quickly while all the others have plenty more life which is frustrating since tires are one of the largest consumable cost when tracking. This is especially true if you mainly drive one track or track that all circulate in the same direction (i.e. clockwise or counterclockwise). Rotate often and you'll make the set of tires last longer.

In your case adding more negative camber will also help wear the tire more evenly across the tread face and not be so hard on just the outside shoulders. If you can get the tires to wear evenly across the tread face then there is no need to flip to get the most life out of them.

As far as flipping tires, especially asymmetrical tires, I realize it's not a popular opinion with most but in my experience and the experience of many other track regulars in my area there are no issues in doing so and it's a great way to squeeze up to 50% more life out of the tire depending on how unevenly they wore. Pretty much every person I've ever talked to who feels strongly that it's a bad idea has never actually tried it and has no idea of what it's actually like. I would be willing to bet that 99% of people would not be able to tell the difference between flipped tires and tires tires in their intended orientation if they didn't know what was on the car at the time. Again, your car and money so do what you feel most comfortable with but that's my .02.

[Marshsram]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

That is a TERRIBLE idea!!! As correctly mentioned below. Tires are designed with specific tread patterns and even varying compounds across the contact patch. You essentially are now skating around on the part of the tire that is only meant to perform under hard cornering in dry weather. Because of the negative camber your outer shoulder (should be inner) won't help you with your wet traction because all your weight is on the inner shoulder (should be outer)...

...Hit the nail on the head! No the car won't burst into flames but it makes as much sense as taking rotational tires and putting them on backwards. You're completely trashing all the engineering work that went into the tread design. If you're doing that why even have performance tires at all? Just go pick up the cheapest available tire.

Have you actually tried it or are you just speculating? I'm honestly not trying to be mean or start a little internet fight- you do have a valid point with the tire running varied compounds but I have tried many different tires flipped in many conditions both on a track and on the street. I promise you the difference is not as night and day as you seem to think. In any case we are talking about dry track use here and the difference is even more negligible.

I have and will run directional tires backwards as well. I have tested back to back in between sessions and there is zero difference in time or feel. Even in some damp to wet conditions there is zero difference in performance running a symmetrical/directional tire backwards. The ONLY difference is if there is standing water because obviously a directional tire facing backwards cannot channel water out as quickly as it can facing it's intended direction.

I'm not trying to trash any engineers work, just trying to get the most within my own "fun" budget. Playing with cars on race tracks is an expensive hobby so you look for savings where you can IF AND ONLY IF it makes sense. I realize that last part if very subjective and different folks will see things different ways. If it were a real safety concern or if I had even seen one failure I would never do it. I didn't see the harm in at least trying it once years ago- lo and behold it worked better than I thought so I continue doing it advise people to try if they want to safely extend the life of their unevenly worn tires. I personally do not want to spend another $1300-$2000 for a new set of tires when I can continue using my current set for a little longer. Over time that adds up to some real money. This is especially reasonable to me if the performance is at least 98% of what it was prior to flipping. Continue doing what makes you feel best, it is your prerogative to use your own money however you like. I just hold the opinion that throwing away expensive tires with plenty of life left is borderline sacrilegious haha.

EDIT** Found a tire rack test that validates some of my findings as well. Check it out. TireRack test of running directional tires forwards vs. backwards in both the wet and dry

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

Have you actually tried it or are you just speculating? I'm honestly not trying to be mean or start a little internet fight- you do have a valid point with the tire running varied compounds but I have tried many different tires flipped in many conditions both on a track and on the street. I promise you the difference is not as night and day as you seem to think. In any case we are talking about dry track use here and the difference is even more negligible.

I have and will run directional tires backwards as well. I have tested back to back in between sessions and there is zero difference in time or feel. Even in some damp to wet conditions there is zero difference in performance running a symmetrical/directional tire backwards. The ONLY difference is if there is standing water because obviously a directional tire facing backwards cannot channel water out as quickly as it can facing it's intended direction.

I'm not trying to trash any engineers work, just trying to get the most within my own "fun" budget. Playing with cars on race tracks is an expensive hobby so you look for savings where you can IF AND ONLY IF it makes sense. I realize that last part if very subjective and different folks will see things different ways. If it were a real safety concern or if I had even seen one failure I would never do it. I didn't see the harm in at least trying it once years ago- lo and behold it worked better than I thought so I continue doing it advise people to try if they want to safely extend the life of their unevenly worn tires. I personally do not want to spend another $1300-$2000 for a new set of tires when I can continue using my current set for a little longer. Over time that adds up to some real money. This is especially reasonable to me if the performance is at least 98% of what it was prior to flipping. Continue doing what makes you feel best, it is your prerogative to use your own money however you like. I just hold the opinion that throwing away expensive tires with plenty of life left is borderline sacrilegious haha.

I have not flipped an asymmetrical tire because its clearly labeled inside and outside. To each their own, but as an Engineer I'm not going to play around and put the tire through situations it was never designed for. We are agreeing on the important parts here. We both encourage rotation from side to side if tire construction permits it. A track running clockwise will tear up the left sides faster than the rights, so there is no reason to just trash 2 tires while the others have plenty of tread. However when the time has come that your outer shoulders are well worn I don't think you should just flip the tires inside out just to get some extra mileage out of it. I just don't get the logic. These aren't $5,000 tires, in fact I would argue they are the most affordable tire in their segment!

Something like that is as cheap as not forking out the extra coin for the premium fuel or only replacing 5 of the 10 quarts of oil during an oil change. Sure the car probably won't explode but, weather you feel it or not, you ARE losing performance and its incredibly cheap! To me cutting corners like that is more indicative that a person may have to cut back on track days or get a cheaper car so they can afford to not have to pinch pennies so much.

[Marshsram]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I have not flipped an asymmetrical tire because its clearly labeled inside and outside. To each their own, but as an Engineer I'm not going to play around and put the tire through situations it was never designed for. We are agreeing on the important parts here. We both encourage rotation from side to side if tire construction permits it. A track running clockwise will tear up the left sides faster than the rights, so there is no reason to just trash 2 tires while the others have plenty of tread. However when the time has come that your outer shoulders are well worn I don't think you should just flip the tires inside out just to get some extra mileage out of it. I just don't get the logic. These aren't $5,000 tires, in fact I would argue they are the most affordable tire in their segment!

Something like that is as cheap as not forking out the extra coin for the premium fuel or only replacing 5 of the 10 quarts of oil during an oil change. Sure the car probably won't explode but, weather you feel it or not, you ARE losing performance and its incredibly cheap! To me cutting corners like that is more indicative that a person may have to cut back on track days or get a cheaper car so they can afford to not have to pinch pennies so much.

Running regular grade fuel or not doing oil changes will actually cause damage to the engine in the long run and I do neither (Motul 300v changed at 5k intervals unless oil temps get particularly hot and only exclusively 91 since thats "premium" here in the hippie state )... I see the point you're trying to make but I argue the tire debate is entirely different. I agree the set of OEM G3s are a great tire and are reasonably priced for what they are and in the sizes they come in relative to other brands but it's still $1400-1500 installed for a new set every time and I'm averaging 20+ track events per year... If I can flip tires and make them last 50% longer it's a significant savings in the long run. That saved money can go towards something I value more than winning an non-competitive track event

I assure you it's not a question of being unnecessarily stingy or an inability to pay for new tires as often- I'm coming from the M3 world and the beauty of the SS 1LE to me is that it's a relatively inexpensive turn-key track weapon capable of humbling some very expensive cars. I just see throwing away good tires as a waste of money for no real reason. I used to compete heavily in time trials and for competition use I want the most grip/newest tires possible. I had two sets of wheels so one could always have fresher, faster rubber on when I needed it. But I argue that for a non-competitive/just for fun track day giving up a few tenths to a second doesn't matter. The car is fast enough, it doesn't take away from the ability to enjoy the car on track and it's not a dangerous drop in performance. It's really that simple.

I understand if you don't see it the same way and thats fine. At the end of the day we can agree to disagree

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

Running regular grade fuel or not doing oil changes will actually cause damage to the engine in the long run and I do neither (Motul 300v changed at 5k intervals unless oil temps get particularly hot and only exclusively 91 since thats "premium" here in the hippie state )... I see the point you're trying to make but I argue the tire debate is entirely different. I agree the set of OEM G3s are a great tire and are reasonably priced for what they are and in the sizes they come in relative to other brands but it's still $1400-1500 installed for a new set every time and I'm averaging 20+ track events per year... If I can flip tires and make them last 50% longer it's a significant savings in the long run. That saved money can go towards something I value more than winning an non-competitive track event

I assure you it's not a question of being unnecessarily stingy or an inability to pay for new tires as often- I'm coming from the M3 world and the beauty of the SS 1LE to me is that it's a relatively inexpensive turn-key track weapon capable of humbling some very expensive cars. I just see throwing away good tires as a waste of money for no real reason. I used to compete heavily in time trials and for competition use I want the most grip/newest tires possible. I had two sets of wheels so one could always have fresher, faster rubber on when I needed it. But I argue that for a non-competitive/just for fun track day giving up a few tenths to a second doesn't matter. The car is fast enough, it doesn't take away from the ability to enjoy the car on track and it's not a dangerous drop in performance. It's really that simple.

I understand if you don't see it the same way and thats fine. At the end of the day we can agree to disagree

I sure wouldn't want to be riding around on directional tires on backwards or flipped tires if it started raining at a track day. Some directional tires would actually channel water into the center of the tire instead of away from the tread. Sounds pretty dangerous to me.

Definitely agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

[Marshsram]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I sure wouldn't want to be riding around on directional tires on backwards or flipped tires if it started raining at a track day. Some directional tires would actually channel water into the center of the tire instead of away from the tread. Sounds pretty dangerous to me.

Definitely agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

TireRack test of running directional tires forwards vs. backwards in both the wet and dry

Did you have a chance to skim through that little article? There is no difference in dry or moderately wet performance using a directional tire backwards... only in standing water at higher speeds.

I've never been caught out in super heavy rain while running directional tires backwards because I'll make sure they are all spinning the correct way if the weather forecast shows a chance of rain. But if I were and it was enough to create standing water I would just slow down and rotate them back to normal. It's really not a big deal.

[JRL1LE]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

TireRack test of running directional tires forwards vs. backwards in both the wet and dry

Did you have a chance to skim through that little article? There is no difference in dry or moderately wet performance using a directional tire backwards... only in standing water at higher speeds.

I've never been caught out in super heavy rain while running directional tires backwards because I'll make sure they are all spinning the correct way if the weather forecast shows a chance of rain. But if I were and it was enough to create standing water I would just slow down and rotate them back to normal. It's really not a big deal.

+1

I have flipped these type of tires many times, (did so on my 2015 1LE and 2017 1LE Goodyears), no issues in dry conditions, lap times were similar.
Spoke with Tirerack before trying it, they said no problem, just be careful in the wet

[baron95]

I have flipped asymmetrical tires a couple of times, including MPSS (which have different compounds) and they performed fine on track, even with very light rain.

By performing fine I mean they performed close to what the tire was performing before it was flipped. I.e. baseline for comparison was a tire with the outside shoulder worn from track duty.

It is actually a great feeling knowing that you have all that extra rubber on the outside to play with. Anyone who tracks their cars a lot and pays for their tires know that feeling - cringing when you go in hard trailbraking into a slow corner - we feel the money going out of our pockets Well, when you flip the tires, it is like finding a few dollars in between the couch cushions - found rubber is found money. I think it makes me drive better, because I'm no longer thinking about tire wear rates.

So you ask....Why I have only done it a couple of times? Because it costs money and time to go to a tire dealer and have the tires flipped, balanced, mounted only to have to come back a month later and put new tires anyway.




P.S. A lot of the asymmetrical tires have pattern angles that do not work exactly the same if used on the left or right side of the car. So some amount of difference is there anyway, even when mounted correctly.

[TJay74]

Originally Posted by baron95

I have flipped asymmetrical tires a couple of times, including MPSS (which have different compounds) and they performed fine on track, even with very light rain.

By performing fine I mean they performed close to what the tire was performing before it was flipped. I.e. baseline for comparison was a tire with the outside shoulder worn from track duty.

It is actually a great feeling knowing that you have all that extra rubber on the outside to play with. Anyone who tracks their cars a lot and pays for their tires know that feeling - cringing when you go in hard trailbraking into a slow corner - we feel the money going out of our pockets Well, when you flip the tires, it is like finding a few dollars in between the couch cushions - found rubber is found money. I think it makes me drive better, because I'm no longer thinking about tire wear rates.

So you ask....Why I have only done it a couple of times? Because it costs money and time to go to a tire dealer and have the tires flipped, balanced, mounted only to have to come back a month later and put new tires anyway.




P.S. A lot of the asymmetrical tires have pattern angles that do not work exactly the same if used on the left or right side of the car. So some amount of difference is there anyway, even when mounted correctly.

You do realize for this thought to correct that means the tires would have be sold with "Left" and Right" side only options. None of the Michelin, Goodyear or Continental tires are made or sold like this. hey only have "outer" or "Outside" on the sidewall for the side that has to face out, that means one tire is always going to be rolling "Forward" and one "Backwards" no matter what.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by TJay74

You do realize for this thought to correct that means the tires would have be sold with "Left" and Right" side only options. None of the Michelin, Goodyear or Continental tires are made or sold like this. hey only have "outer" or "Outside" on the sidewall for the side that has to face out, that means one tire is always going to be rolling "Forward" and one "Backwards" no matter what.

Yes, I do realize that. What I'm saying is that in some of these tires the thread blocks are angled and if you look at them mounted as intended the thread blocks/gaps hit the road at a different angle on the left and on the right. I know it is not a big deal, but as an Engineer it bother me

[TrackClub]

Very entertaining dispute...is it spring yet lol?!

I have flipped tires before but given how relatively inexpensive G3s are paying for flipping is not always the most cost effective solution especially that they do wear on the inside as well, as far as the outside tire goes...but back to the OP:

Chaos....you're back...whats the camber on your Vette?

[Hops]

Has anyone else out there tried the flipping with success? I've been reading that many here have an issue with inside wear. Well, i ask because patch/plug repair at a local tire shop has left that front tire mounted wrong (flipped so the outside is inside). Since it's already flipped.... thinking i'll just finish the job and have the other flipped before my new jersey track night.