[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I understand that no matter what a 500 might be capable of it will be a failure in this forums eyes

That is an exaggeration if I ever heard one. Nobody said that we are not going to be impressed no matter what. What we're saying is that at this point, the GT500 has a lot of ground to make up. And considering how much time it is taking for it to arrive, it better damn well hit every mark on the head. Otherwise it will be a failure. It can't get away with just eeking out a victory. It has to be a sound win. And the price has to be comparable. And if you can't get one without a $20K-$50K markup, then that again takes away from it. The vast majority of us here respect the GT500. Not so much the GT or GT350. But still it has to be the saving grace of this S550 Generation as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by newmoon

The Track effort was the 16 R, unfortunately it was N/A setup competing against a SC Camaro with similar handling and braking ability.

None of that should have mattered since the LT4 is a truck engine that has COPD over 4K RPMs. Isn't the Voodoo supposed to be an athletic and sporty high revving engine that is better suited for the track?

All you're proving is that Ford attempted to make a track only Mustang. And then Chevy made a non-track specific Camaro that was able to do everything well while beating the Shelby at what it was built to do. And with more options for less money.

[ihc95]

I remember a couple years ago when you could've gotten a brand new 5th gen Z28 for like $45k. Talk about desirability lol

[rfopt]

newmoon is pretty much correct regarding the 13-14 GT500. It was more of a "jack of all trades" car similar to the 12-15 ZL1. That GT500 had an optional performance package that consisted of an upgraded suspension that was similar to the ZL1 in overall objective. In addition there was an optional track package that consisted of engine oil, transmission and differential coolers. Whats interesting is the ZL1 had most/all of this stuff standard whereas one had to add these packages to the GT500 to make it competitive on a road course. I guess this was Fords way of having a more competitive base price.

My opinion of the new upcoming GT500 is as follows:
It will be another "jack of all trades" car. It will never be as much of a raw, light weight feeling, nimble drivers car the GT350R is. If it posts average lap times surpassing the ZL1 and GT350R it will be partially due to that more powerful engine. I feel the objective handling portion of the car will at best match the current ZL1. It will not match the ZL1 1LE in objective handling.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ihc95

I remember a couple years ago when you could've gotten a brand new 5th gen Z28 for like $45k. Talk about desirability lol

Tell me something else that is false and completely made up...

Back then you couldn't even get a 2SS/RS for $45K brand new. In fact that was one of the reasons why people flocked to the GT. Because the Camaros were much more expensive. Nobody was selling brand new Z28s for less than MSRP unless there was a rebate.

Originally Posted by rfopt

My opinion of the new upcoming GT500 is as follows:
It will be another "jack of all trades" car. It will never be as much of a raw, light weight feeling, nimble drivers car the GT350R is. If it posts average lap times surpassing the ZL1 and GT350R it will be partially due to that more powerful engine. I feel the objective handling portion of the car will at best match the current ZL1. It will not match the ZL1 1LE in objective handling.

This is why I say it will likely get a PP2-ish or PP1.5-ish or some version of PP1/2 whatever like the Bullitt. Knowing how Ford likes to half-ass things, (ahem no coolers on the PP2), or make you pay extra for all these options but then some options can't be added if you have this or that other option (ahem, GT350), I can't see them building it with an actually decent suspension and tires and the engine/drivetrain. I think they'll settle for a mediocre suspension, a decent tire, some cheap coolers, and then a slug of an engine to make up for it's deficiencies. So if it gets caught in the turns it can just outmuscle the ZL1 in the straights. The ZL1 will always be the car that is put together better and designed perfectly from the Ground up. The GT500 might be faster but it'll be a Frankenstien's Monster with bits and pieces thrown here and there and not really as refined.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by ihc95

I remember a couple years ago when you could've gotten a brand new 5th gen Z28 for like $45k. Talk about desirability lol

Look on car gurus and see how many used z28 are for sale, then compare that to the used gt350’s.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

Look on car gurus and see how many used z28 are for sale, then compare that to the used gt350’s.

And they aren't fetching that much money either. So much for all the talk about how they retain value.



On another note, I can't wait to see the implosion when the GT guys who can't afford the GT500 start talking shit about how their $31K GT with a used blower is faster than a stock Shelby, lol!! Or how their stock GT with "minor bolt-ons" runs 9s and is faster than the GT500.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That is an exaggeration if I ever heard one. Nobody said that we are not going to be impressed no matter what. What we're saying is that at this point, the GT500 has a lot of ground to make up. And considering how much time it is taking for it to arrive, it better damn well hit every mark on the head. Otherwise it will be a failure. It can't get away with just eeking out a victory. It has to be a sound win. And the price has to be comparable. And if you can't get one without a $20K-$50K markup, then that again takes away from it. The vast majority of us here respect the GT500. Not so much the GT or GT350. But still it has to be the saving grace of this S550 Generation as far as I'm concerned.

None of that should have mattered since the LT4 is a truck engine that has COPD over 4K RPMs. Isn't the Voodoo supposed to be an athletic and sporty high revving engine that is better suited for the track?

All you're proving is that Ford attempted to make a track only Mustang. And then Chevy made a non-track specific Camaro that was able to do everything well while beating the Shelby at what it was built to do. And with more options for less money.

As far as the GT500 I agree it needs to beat the ZL1 pretty soundly in my opinion. ZLE I still don't know because we don't know if we know waht full direction they are going, and I say the MSRP will be determine that. I have long said I expect the GT500 to slot in between the ZL1 and ZLE performance wise and price wise(MSRP). I don't think the ADM will take away from it, because that is on the greedy dealers. If ford builds the car and does everything we hope it can/should and prices right in line with the ZL1 or ZLE but dealers get greedy IMO that doesn't take away from the car one bit because Ford doesn't see 1 dime of that extra moneys.

And Blaq we have had this conversation many times before. The 350R was made to beat the 5th gen Z/28. Was it a short sighted goal by Ford to target a model on its way out, sure was. And the 350R and 350 probably should have been discontinued after 17 model year. But the 350R was made to beat the Z/28 and it did it, while offering more options for less moneys. And then the 6th gen ZL1 came out and ate the 350R's lunch. But as far as I am concerned Ford accomplished their goal (as short sighted as it was) they just let the car live to long.

And that doesn't take anything away from the ZL1. ZL1 has set the bar extremely high. Probably why the GT500 has been delayed so much. So yeah it has a lot to live up to. Hopefully we see something soon

[ihc95]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Tell me something else that is false and completely made up...

Back then you couldn't even get a 2SS/RS for $45K brand new. In fact that was one of the reasons why people flocked to the GT. Because the Camaros were much more expensive. Nobody was selling brand new Z28s for less than MSRP unless there was a rebate.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/11/...hed-from-msrp/


My buddy almost bought one for $52k but wound up waiting for a Cayman GT4.

I actually like the Z28 but I think they should've done what Ford did with the 350 and made a less extreme version for people who aren't serious about the track (no ceramics, no Trofeo Rs etc). Imagine a 5th gen SS 1LE with an LS7 for like $50-55k

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Ok let me see if I understand your logic. The Z28 wasn't really a track car effort by GM , The GT350R is an Track Car effort, I agree.

The 1LE version of the ZL1 is the same as adding a Track Package to the GT500

Did anybody actually say this? I must’ve missed that.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

As far as the GT500 I agree it needs to beat the ZL1 pretty soundly in my opinion. ZLE I still don't know because we don't know if we know waht full direction they are going, and I say the MSRP will be determine that. I have long said I expect the GT500 to slot in between the ZL1 and ZLE performance wise and price wise(MSRP). I don't think the ADM will take away from it, because that is on the greedy dealers. If ford builds the car and does everything we hope it can/should and prices right in line with the ZL1 or ZLE but dealers get greedy IMO that doesn't take away from the car one bit because Ford doesn't see 1 dime of that extra moneys.

And Blaq we have had this conversation many times before. The 350R was made to beat the 5th gen Z/28. Was it a short sighted goal by Ford to target a model on its way out, sure was. And the 350R and 350 probably should have been discontinued after 17 model year. But the 350R was made to beat the Z/28 and it did it, while offering more options for less moneys. And then the 6th gen ZL1 came out and ate the 350R's lunch. But as far as I am concerned Ford accomplished their goal (as short sighted as it was) they just let the car live to long.

And that doesn't take anything away from the ZL1. ZL1 has set the bar extremely high. Probably why the GT500 has been delayed so much. So yeah it has a lot to live up to. Hopefully we see something soon

Well said, shaffe. I’ve always felt the same way about that. Somehow Ford didn’t see the 6th Gen 1LE or ZL1 coming. Or at least didn’t expect them to be as good as they are. They were focused on the Z/28, which was targeted at a very slim demographic AND was on the way out almost from the day it landed, due to the not so secret migration to Alpha for Gen 6. I also think that is part of the reason for the delays to GT500. Not wanting to get caught aiming at the wrong target again and recalibration to respond to Redeye and ZLE. The GT350/350R were most likely planned to exit after 2017, with the GT500 coming in to wrap up the S550 story, but with the delays, keeping GT350/350R around makes sense, because they are awesome cars. Problem is, it handcuffed what Ford could really accomplish with Bullit and PP2 without tarnishing GT350’s crown. They, especially PP2, got dumbed down to protect the still-on-the-lot GT350.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

As far as the GT500 I agree it needs to beat the ZL1 pretty soundly in my opinion. ZLE I still don't know because we don't know if we know waht full direction they are going, and I say the MSRP will be determine that. I have long said I expect the GT500 to slot in between the ZL1 and ZLE performance wise and price wise(MSRP). I don't think the ADM will take away from it, because that is on the greedy dealers. If ford builds the car and does everything we hope it can/should and prices right in line with the ZL1 or ZLE but dealers get greedy IMO that doesn't take away from the car one bit because Ford doesn't see 1 dime of that extra moneys.

The problem is that MSRP doesn't matter if you can't get the car for that price. So it does take away from the car. Let's say it matches the ZL1 and the MSRP is $65K. But let's say you can't get it for that price and the lowest you can get one for is $90K. Well that means you're spending $90K on a car that matches a $65K car. So while Ford sees no benefit it still takes away from the buyer and decreases the performance value of that car.

Originally Posted by shaffe

And Blaq we have had this conversation many times before. The 350R was made to beat the 5th gen Z/28. Was it a short sighted goal by Ford to target a model on its way out, sure was. And the 350R and 350 probably should have been discontinued after 17 model year. But the 350R was made to beat the Z/28 and it did it, while offering more options for less moneys. And then the 6th gen ZL1 came out and ate the 350R's lunch. But as far as I am concerned Ford accomplished their goal (as short sighted as it was) they just let the car live to long.

My statement was more to make a point. Yes it was built to compete with the Z28. Or so we believe. However there still have been statements criticizing the LT4 engine and praising the Voodoo. And all I'm saying is that if the VD was that good then it should have been able to keep up with the elderly COPD truck engine that is the LT4.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ihc95

I actually like the Z28 but I think they should've done what Ford did with the 350 and made a less extreme version for people who aren't serious about the track (no ceramics, no Trofeo Rs etc). Imagine a 5th gen SS 1LE with an LS7 for like $50-55k

You mean the ZL1. That is the less extreme version. If people don't want an extreme track car, then they can buy the ZL1. Just like how we have the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ihc95

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/11/...hed-from-msrp/


My buddy almost bought one for $52k but wound up waiting for a Cayman GT4.

I actually like the Z28 but I think they should've done what Ford did with the 350 and made a less extreme version for people who aren't serious about the track (no ceramics, no Trofeo Rs etc). Imagine a 5th gen SS 1LE with an LS7 for like $50-55k

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I agree I like 5th Gen 14/15 models much better, the Z28 while slower is probably a better track car than the ZL1. The lack of sales due to the ridiculous pricing probably killed the N/A track package for the 6th Gen Z28, and they filled the gap with the ZL1, which with its present large hp/tq advantage keeps it on top.

I think most in this forum would welcome another version of the Z28 in a NA form similar to what the GT350 is as not everyone is a fan of forced induction instead of a ZL1-1LE package. The problem is with the ZL1 sporting 650/650 for power, a Z28 would have to be one hell of a N/A build to take the lead back.

[NW-99SS]

The biggest question for the GT500 is where do they focus it's performance?

The 13/14 Trinity was top HP for all domestics, at that point in time. No one else came close aside from a very expensive ZR1 which, while faster, is apples to oranges and still less HP.

Fast forward to Demons, Hellcat Redeye's and ZLEs...

Ford is in one hell of a tough spot IMO. I think it's safe to assume they will have a hard time matching any Demon/Redeye acceleration. I also think it's safe to say the S550 chassis doesn't have handling numbers within ZL1 range, never mind ZLE spec.

So where do they slot this car? Slightly faster than a ZL1, but similar handling or slightly less (I will be pleasantly surprised to see a GT500 handle like a base ZL1, even with a track pack). Or try to compete with Mopar on acceleration and sacrifice some handling making the ZL1/ZLE gap that much more pronounced.

I really hope it's a successful car either way. Tough competition makes for better cars from all manufacturer's...maybe it will push the Camaro team to an LT5 Camaro.