[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Why do I hear Bernie Sanders' voice when I read these? The average price of a new car in the US is $34k. The base Camaro starts at $26k, the V8 at $37k. For the performance I can't see a reason to complain.



So people are going to choose between a $80k Z06, a $83k CTS-V, or a $83k Z/28? What makes you think the Z/28 is going to cost more than a Z06 or CTS-V?





The 500 Z/28's built for 2014 MY were sold before they hit dealer lots, many for over MSRP. They built 2,500 for 2015 the final year of the 5th gen and some of them sat on lots as details of the Alpha based 6th gen began to emerge. Surprised?

As Posaune points out, this is a tiny niche market. The GT-R sold less than 100 cars a month last year. The Viper sold less than 50 a month and the GT3 sold less than that even.

The price all ways goes up, in the 5th gen Z/28 with AC MSRP was $76,645 if you add the price increase from the 5th to 6th gen you have an average of some 5K and then add CF rims, to me that will cost more then $1500, i hope i am off but thats where i think it come in at.

so you know there was more like 385 cars made in 2014 Z/28 made for sale, in 2015 it was under 1500 units made.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Believe it or not, it does come up with BMW faithful. Many have abandoned the brand over the last generation. Most are what we would call "true driving enthusiasts" who want the best drivers car. It's actually where I first heard of the 1LE. Many there were plain shocked at the fact it drove and handled much much better than Msport cars. Others defected to the ATS since it was more like the E93 cars which they all loved. So yes indeed it has impacted potential buyers, but for BMW that has been offset by the numbers of Toyota Camry/Avalon, and former Cadillac owners (you know the stereotype) who have started buying BMWs. They aren't buying M4 of course, but then again the M4 is not selling well either. Probably thanks to the fact is almost everyone is building an M4 killer, just not all as cheap as the SS.

I will agree that BMW is losing sales but I doubt there are many of those who walked away from BMW that went to GM or Ford. Most likely, they slid over to an Audi, Porsche, MB etc. I can't see the 5 Series crowd jumping out of a 528i and racing over to the GM dealer to jump into an Impala or down to the CDJ dealer to slide into a Charger.

Same for the 3 or 4 series crowd. They seldom trade 'down' (in their mind) and how many used BMWs do you see on a Ford, GM, or Dodge lot?

Right... hardly ever. They are going right by the domestic manufacturers' lots and on over to the Audi, the MB, and the Jaguar lots after maybe glancing at the Cadillac lot as they zip by sipping their lattes and listening to NPR.

And - the BMW buyers are also few and far between who even care if the car (aside from possibly the M market and those buyers who do track a car once in a while) can kill or be killed by a Camaro or Shelby. Yes, the SS is the performance buy bang for your buck. But the upscale market buyers really do not care as much about that as we do.

They are not swayed by some magazine writer's opinion. They typically do not care whether the car was one of 10 best or won Car of the Year.

MOST of them are buying the brand, not the performance. I don't get it but they do.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I know it was just one article, but it was ground-breaking. In most, if not all, of the subjective metrics that matter to a driver who wants to "enjoy" the experience of driving, the M4 came short when compared to the Camaro SS to those guys.

This is the next step in a gradual progression of the Camaro out of the psychological restraint of the "muscle car" stigma. Last generation broke the mold with the ZL1 and subsequent cars.

This generation is going to prove last generation wasn't a fluke.

Sorry, perhaps I worded that wrong. I agree they rated it a better car. I was was saying "no it wasn't" a devastating blow as you put it. The Gen 6 appears to be a fantastic car. Hell my '15 1LE is a fantastic car. Does BMW give a rats ass? Nope.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Thor142

Sorry, perhaps I worded that wrong. I agree they rated it a better car. I was was saying "no it wasn't" a devastating blow as you put it. The Gen 6 appears to be a fantastic car. Hell my '15 1LE is a fantastic car. Does BMW give a rats ass? Nope.

Gotcha.

If I advertise my cars as the "world's best driving machine", and my halo car just got punched in the gut by a Chevy at half the price in all the subjective metrics I usually rest my laurels on....and it's all over prominent magazines....I'd be furious.

If they don't care...then BMW will continue their downward trend that it's been said the M's have suffered from recently...

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

With time, I expect this to change a little.

The luxury companies are increasingly offering cheaper alternatives, while the Camaro, Mustang, and Corvette are moving upmarket and offering uncompromising quality, engagement, performance...To be unquestionably rated a better car than the M4 was a devastating blow for BMW - they should be embarrassed.

Don't forget that as Camaro gets more expensive, so does everything else...

It may only be a "lowly" Camaro, but it IS a world-class car...give it some time, and if Camaro team keeps doing what they're doing...I think people will start to come around...certainly not everyone. But at some point, people will start asking themselves; "What am I getting for my $$"?

Why should they 'be embarrassed'? Because the 'lowly' SS out performed the M4? I really doubt they care all that much IF at all.

Yes, the Camaro is a world-class car but it nor the Mustang or the Challenger will probably ever be seen by the world as a peer (much less a better car) to a Porsche, BMW, or similar.

$100K GTRs, $150K Audi R8s, and $190K 911 Turbos are one thing. $80K or more Camaros are something quite different regardless how upscale and outperforming they may be to those much more expensive toys - in about anyone's market.

It's like the little train that could... I THINK I can, I THINK I can, etc... A Camaro is not a BMW. It very well will outperform it. But it's still not a BMW. Or a Porsche. Or an Audi. To THOSE buyers, that matters.

The luxury makers are offering lower priced models to increase sales and that tactic is working.

[newb]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I will agree that BMW is losing sales but I doubt there are many of those who walked away from BMW that went to GM or Ford. Most likely, they slid over to an Audi, Porsche, MB etc. I can't see the 5 Series crowd jumping out of a 528i and racing over to the GM dealer to jump into an Impala or down to the CDJ dealer to slide into a Charger.

Same for the 3 or 4 series crowd. They seldom trade 'down' (in their mind) and how many used BMWs do you see on a Ford, GM, or Dodge lot?

Right... hardly ever. They are going right by the domestic manufacturers' lots and on over to the Audi, the MB, and the Jaguar lots after maybe glancing at the Cadillac lot as they zip by sipping their lattes and listening to NPR.

And - the BMW buyers are also few and far between who even care if the car (aside from possibly the M market and those buyers who do track a car once in a while) can kill or be killed by a Camaro or Shelby. Yes, the SS is the performance buy bang for your buck. But the upscale market buyers really do not care as much about that as we do.

They are not swayed by some magazine writer's opinion. They typically do not care whether the car was one of 10 best or won Car of the Year.

MOST of them are buying the brand, not the performance. I don't get it but they do.

I know why they do... I have watched girls eyes light up when they saw my buddies BMW key that he conveniently sat on the table as we had a few drinks at the bar. Many people view cars as a status symbol. Reality is, he had a 6 year old BMW that was one of the biggest POSs I've had the pleasure of driving. But the ladies loved the "status"

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

so you know there was more like 385 cars made in 2014 Z/28 made for sale, in 2015 it was under 1500 units made.

I wish I had the '14 breakdown numbers in front of me...'15 production was 1292 to be exact.

[Glen e]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I will agree that BMW is losing sales but I doubt there are many of those who walked away from BMW that went to GM or Ford. Most likely, they slid over to an Audi, Porsche, MB etc. I can't see the 5 Series crowd jumping out of a 528i and racing over to the GM dealer to jump into an Impala or down to the CDJ dealer to slide into a Charger.

Same for the 3 or 4 series crowd. They seldom trade 'down' (in their mind) and how many used BMWs do you see on a Ford, GM, or Dodge lot?

Right... hardly ever. They are going right by the domestic manufacturers' lots and on over to the Audi, the MB, and the Jaguar lots after maybe glancing at the Cadillac lot as they zip by sipping their lattes and listening to NPR.

And - the BMW buyers are also few and far between who even care if the car (aside from possibly the M market and those buyers who do track a car once in a while) can kill or be killed by a Camaro or Shelby. Yes, the SS is the performance buy bang for your buck. But the upscale market buyers really do not care as much about that as we do.

They are not swayed by some magazine writer's opinion. They typically do not care whether the car was one of 10 best or won Car of the Year.

MOST of them are buying the brand, not the performance. I don't get it but they do.

I have worked for BMW corporate for the last 30 years. Now retired. All the above is true. There is virtually no cross shopping to GM. The only recent shift in registration data is the C7 is starting to penetrate the Porsche numbers…

[newb]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Gotcha.

If I advertise my cars as the "world's best driving machine", and my halo car just got punched in the gut by a Chevy at half the price in all the subjective metrics I usually rest my laurels on....and it's all over prominent magazines....I'd be furious.

If they don't care...then BMW will continue their downward trend that it's been said the M's have suffered from recently...

The only problem with that thought process is that people still buy BMW for the name. People still aspire to have a BMW regardless of how sloppy the suspension has gotten or how numb the steering feel has become or how much weight it has gained. It is still a BMW, therefore it is sought after.

How many people do you know that will buy a Sony Tv over a Vizio? Even though Vizio makes an equal if not better quality product, they don't have the brand recognition. They are consistently rated a best buy Tv brand, yet Samsung and Sony sell circles around them. Why?

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by newb

I know why they do... I have watched girls eyes light up when they saw my buddies BMW key that he conveniently sat on the table as we had a few drinks at the bar. Many people view cars as a status symbol. Reality is, he had a 6 year old BMW that was one of the biggest POSs I've had the pleasure of driving. But the ladies loved the "status"

BINGO! we have a winner.

Originally Posted by newb

The only problem with that thought process is that people still buy BMW for the name. People still aspire to have a BMW regardless of how sloppy the suspension has gotten or how numb the steering feel has become or how much weight it has gained. It is still a BMW, therefore it is sought after.

How many people do you know that will buy a Sony Tv over a Vizio? Even though Vizio makes an equal if not better quality product, they don't have the brand recognition. They are consistently rated a best buy Tv brand, yet Samsung and Sony sell circles around them. Why?

I have a VIZIO lol. But I research and cross shop brands a LOT! I didn't always have money or come from money so I really try to get the best value for my dollar. I don't give a rats ass about branding. If Ford gives me a better car by 2018 for my dollar I'll drop Chevy like a bad habit.

There are a lot of guys on this site that are just like the BMW guys though. Chevy could sell them turds for years and they would still proudly announce "I'm a Chevy guy". Now imagine you're in that group of chevy guys and one of your buddies pulls in in a brand new Ford that spanks your Chevy in every metric. You don't go buy a Ford, you make fun of him. See how brand loyalty works? I actually think its bad for the brand. Which seems to have happened to the M4.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I will agree that BMW is losing sales but I doubt there are many of those who walked away from BMW that went to GM or Ford. Most likely, they slid over to an Audi, Porsche, MB etc. I can't see the 5 Series crowd jumping out of a 528i and racing over to the GM dealer to jump into an Impala or down to the CDJ dealer to slide into a Charger.

Same for the 3 or 4 series crowd. They seldom trade 'down' (in their mind) and how many used BMWs do you see on a Ford, GM, or Dodge lot?

Right... hardly ever. They are going right by the domestic manufacturers' lots and on over to the Audi, the MB, and the Jaguar lots after maybe glancing at the Cadillac lot as they zip by sipping their lattes and listening to NPR.

And - the BMW buyers are also few and far between who even care if the car (aside from possibly the M market and those buyers who do track a car once in a while) can kill or be killed by a Camaro or Shelby. Yes, the SS is the performance buy bang for your buck. But the upscale market buyers really do not care as much about that as we do.

They are not swayed by some magazine writer's opinion. They typically do not care whether the car was one of 10 best or won Car of the Year.

MOST of them are buying the brand, not the performance. I don't get it but they do.

You missed my point. BMW is not loosing sales so to speak, they are loosing enthusiasts. I was only speaking to the people who look for the Msport and M verisons. Not base turbo 4 3,4, and 5 series. Those cars are attracting the status seekers and numb ride seekers (old Caddy owners for one). You can go to any of their new model forums and find complaints about how they don't build the ultimate driving machine anymore. This applies only to those looking for that kind of car, not the status symbol seekers. Realistically we know that is a tiny portion of their buyers. So not arguing that the vast majority of prospective BMW buyers never consider a domestic. But their former enthusiasts certainly do. And anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't spent enough time on their boards.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by Thor142

BINGO! we have a winner.



I have a VIZIO lol. But I research and cross shop brands a LOT! I didn't always have money or come from money so I really try to get the best value for my dollar. I don't give a rats ass about branding. If Ford gives me a better car by 2018 for my dollar I'll drop Chevy like a bad habit.

There are a lot of guys on this site that are just like the BMW guys though. Chevy could sell them turds for years and they would still proudly announce "I'm a Chevy guy". Now imagine you're in that group of chevy guys and one of your buddies pulls in in a brand new Ford that spanks your Chevy in every metric. You don't go buy a Ford, you make fun of him. See how brand loyalty works? I actually think its bad for the brand. Which seems to have happened to the M4.

Drop like a bad habit.. That's such a weird saying. Isn't it hard to drop bad habits? Lol.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

Drop like a bad habit.. That's such a weird saying. Isn't it hard to drop bad habits? Lol.

LOL!!! Yes...as I sit here sucking on my nicotine vaporizer like it's my job so I don't smoke a cigarette.....

[newb]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You missed my point. BMW is not loosing sales so to speak, they are loosing enthusiasts. I was only speaking to the people who look for the Msport and M verisons. Not base turbo 4 3,4, and 5 series. Those cars are attracting the status seekers and numb ride seekers (old Caddy owners for one). You can go to any of their new model forums and find complaints about how they don't build the ultimate driving machine anymore. This applies only to those looking for that kind of car, not the status symbol seekers. Realistically we know that is a tiny portion of their buyers. So not arguing that the vast majority of prospective BMW buyers never consider a domestic. But their former enthusiasts certainly do. And anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't spent enough time on their boards.

But I think at this point BMW doesn't give a rats ass about the performance enthusiast. Clearly there about the bottom line, and as long as the bottom line hasn't changed they are happy. Much like Honda went through the same thing. Until the bottom line changed they didn't care about dropping performance models or the performance quality of their cars. Sad but true