[VADER SS L99]

Take away the traction advantage AWD gives over RWD, in a straight line situation, with the correct wheel/tire setup and all you have is more weight and higher cost. DCT is great, no arguments there but it would drive cost up I would imagine. The type of DCT that could handle the LT1/LT4 torque would be a pretty expensive transmission I bet. This is after all suppose to be a performance car that the average person can afford. I really want a 6th gen SS but if it has a starting MSRP of $40k before options I would look else where.

[Jeb114]

Originally Posted by mr02Z/28

<~~~~~~~ very happy with RWD, for the past 30yrs,,,,,,,, plus can you even do a burnout with an AWD set-up ?????

Watch this Video it will answer your question.....

http://www.break.com/video/ken-block...ets-la-2788011

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

Take away the traction advantage AWD gives over RWD, in a straight line situation, with the correct wheel/tire setup and all you have is more weight and higher cost. DCT is great, no arguments there but it would drive cost up I would imagine. The type of DCT that could handle the LT1/LT4 torque would be a pretty expensive transmission I bet. This is after all suppose to be a performance car that the average person can afford. I really want a 6th gen SS but if it has a starting MSRP of $40k before options I would look else where.

I've never seen cost, but not sure an automated manual would be signicantly more. And a DCT to handle high torque would not be anything more proportionally than an automatic to handle the same high torque.

AWD is why the GTR can still run with a Z06 with much less HP. So it's not just launch.

I fully agree, this car must remain affordable. And GM has Cadillac ATS and CTS Vs that should remain aspirational above the Camaro.

[2015 New Corvette]

Originally Posted by Phenix

On a side note... 9 million computational hours... That's 375,000 days, or 100 simulations running non-stop every second of every day for the last 10 years and 3 months (give or take a bit). Hmm, I wonder if that number came from the accountants that got GM bankrupt in the first place.

I don't understand blaming GM's problems on "accountants". GM made bad cars (mostly) for pretty long stretch there. That wasn't an accountant's decision, that was an executive's decision. I'm an accountant, and while I know all the stereotypes, it wasn't us accountants who make pretty good money making that choice, it was the executives making absolutely gigantic sums of money who made the poor decisions to run GM into the ground. I assure you that us "accountants" don't have that kind of power, haha.

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by 2015 New Corvette

I don't understand blaming GM's problems on "accountants". GM made bad cars (mostly) for pretty long stretch there. That wasn't an accountant's decision, that was an executive's decision. I'm an accountant, and while I know all the stereotypes, it wasn't us accountants who make pretty good money making that choice, it was the executives making absolutely gigantic sums of money who made the poor decisions to run GM into the ground. I assure you that us "accountants" don't have that kind of power, haha.

Quoted for truth. GM's accouting department is not doing the strategic decision making at GM's headquarters. That (dis)honor belongs to the C suite.

The accounting department may be asked to present budgets, unit costs, and costs of alternatives, but they weren't the ones formerly deciding to use flimsy parts to assemble a death trap in the name of saving a dollar per unit.

[WHAMMO]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I've never seen cost, but not sure an automated manual would be signicantly more. And a DCT to handle high torque would not be anything more proportionally than an automatic to handle the same high torque.

AWD is why the GTR can still run with a Z06 with much less HP. So it's not just launch.

I fully agree, this car must remain affordable. And GM has Cadillac ATS and CTS Vs that should remain aspirational above the Camaro.

Its not just the AWD, far from it. Its the overall package. The Z06 shitt on any other AWD. And then again, there was a rematch and the Z06 beat the Nismo (du to bad alignment).

The trans of the GTR is costing 3 times a Z06 trans. Almost no HP lost in the drivetrain.

Have you ever drove a GTR? Its stiff as hell (2-3 times a 1LE)!!! I cant imagine how stupid stiff is a Nismo GTR. Every time you hit a small pothole in a GTR it feels like your wheel is gonna split in half...

About the Nismo beeing faster in a straight line, it seems the Z gearing sucks or it overheats or aero or whatever. There is a problem happening at high speed and GM needs to fix this. The Nismo was going 10mph + faster in the straight away. Somethings wrong here.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

Watch this Video it will answer your question.....

http://www.break.com/video/ken-block...ets-la-2788011

1. It is chained
2. It is custom

[newb]

Originally Posted by WHAMMO

Its not just the AWD, far from it. Its the overall package. The Z06 shitt on any other AWD. And then again, there was a rematch and the Z06 beat the Nismo (du to bad alignment).

The trans of the GTR is costing 3 times a Z06 trans. Almost no HP lost in the drivetrain.

Have you ever drove a GTR? Its stiff as hell (2-3 times a 1LE)!!! I cant imagine how stupid stiff is a Nismo GTR. Every time you hit a small pothole in a GTR it feels like your wheel is gonna split in half...

About the Nismo beeing faster in a straight line, it seems the Z gearing sucks or it overheats or aero or whatever. There is a problem happening at high speed and GM needs to fix this. The Nismo was going 10mph + faster in the straight away. Somethings wrong here.

And after they broke down the laps, the GTR was still only faster in a straight line. Mid corner and corner entry went to the Z06. That's where light weight shines. It's only so useful to have great drive off the corner if you have to park at the apex to get the car turned. And AWD cars almost always push the front on corner entry and suffer mid corner because of it.

[mr02Z/28]

LMFAO ........ that ken block ride Is Not the Average AWD set-up that you could buy from the dealer, that cannot even be compared to anything .... Can an average AWD, Un-Chained, Non Custom ride do a Burn-out ???

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I've never seen cost, but not sure an automated manual would be signicantly more. And a DCT to handle high torque would not be anything more proportionally than an automatic to handle the same high torque.

AWD is why the GTR can still run with a Z06 with much less HP. So it's not just launch.

I fully agree, this car must remain affordable. And GM has Cadillac ATS and CTS Vs that should remain aspirational above the Camaro.

Take a 8 speed auto z06 and completely elimimate wheel spin with a DR to test acceleration against the GTR and you would see the AWD advantage completely gone with the Z06 running a good half second quicker in the 1/4. A stock Z06 with a DR has already run 10.3. The GTR ain't doing that stock.

A DCT that would reliably handle the torque of a LT1/LT4 for 60k miles would undoubtedly add cost to the Vette and Camaro. Name me another mfg's DCT and I bet it comes in a more expensive car or has a DCT that wouldnt handle the power. V8 M3 is a perfect example. That car is expensive and its DCT would never reliably handle LT1/4 torque. I'm not saying a properly built DCT couldn't handle the torque. I'm saying it would for sure add cost. AWD would add weight AND add cost. More cost + more weight = for me. I'm middle class who won't push my car to the limits in cornering, drag race on occasion, don't drive this car in snow and am not afraid to use a drag radial tire so I might be in the minority when I say I want it as light as possible without any added cost.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by newb

And after they broke down the laps, the GTR was still only faster in a straight line. Mid corner and corner entry went to the Z06. That's where light weight shines. It's only so useful to have great drive off the corner if you have to park at the apex to get the car turned. And AWD cars almost always push the front on corner entry and suffer mid corner because of it.

There is a lot of down sides to AWD, this is where a car makers ability to develop their car to optimize everything. This is really where the amount of money they invest on developing a vehicle comes into play. There are a lot more AWD vehicles then there are ones that perform well.

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by Phenix

On a side note... 9 million computational hours... That's 375,000 days, or 100 simulations running non-stop every second of every day for the last 10 years and 3 months (give or take a bit). Hmm, I wonder if that number came from the accountants that got GM bankrupt in the first place.

Well, if you have 100 machines running the simulations simultaneously, then you would divide that time by 100. I doubt they made up the numbers.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Maybe I am missing something here, but I put a set of PZero's on my Jetta. They were not rated for snow of course, but they were amazing in both wet and dry conditions and had plenty of tread left after 20k miles. I drove in snow/slush with them before and they were just as good as the Continental All Seasons tires the car came with. Are the PZero's on the 5th gens something different than a standard PZero?

I agree, an all season tire is the best for all trim levels except the 1LE. For the 1LE you should get a choice I would think.

Treadwear on the PZero's on these cars are abysmal. Remember, these cars are large and heavy with wide rims, so they chew through the tires quickly. They also cannot be rotated because they are staggered. PZero's are typically chewed through in 15,000-20,000 miles on these cars.

A Jetta also has narrow tires with front wheel drive. These are staggered 245/275 widths with rear wheel drive. The wider the tire, the worse they tend to perform in wet, cold and snow. The all-season performance of a Camaro on PZero's is nothing short of terrible. It will be hard to find a worse tire for the car...except for course for the F1's! There are reports of the F1's cracking just driving around in <40 degree temps. Not doing anything stupid or dangerous. Just cruising on the highway or driving around town in perfectly dry, clear, <40 degree temps.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Except...then the car won't perform nearly as well in testing, and therefore won't compare well in magazine tests...appearing slow and feeling sluggish and sloppy.

Summer tires offer the ability to put the performance a car can produce down to the ground efficiently. All-seasons do not. As sporty cars become faster...you're going to find all season tires just can't cut it. Now...with respect - you may not feel a difference in the performance of the car with all-seasons...but my guess is you're not driving the car at the levels where all-season tires give up.

Now, that said - there are some nice summer tires out there that do perfectly fine in the wet and cold. Just not on ice and snow. And frankly - I don't think all seasons work any good in the snow and ice, either. I'll never drive another winter without snow/winter tires.

And there lies the problem. Sacrificing real-world performance chasing some mythical test result for magazine articles that no one reads. People that buy a Camaro SS buy one for one reason: they want a Camaro SS. People are not making their decisions based on some Motor Trend article. It's a useless comparison. However, there are countless people on this website pissed that these cars come with such terrible tires. They have some of the worst treadwear of any tire available, are the most expensive street tire you can get (which is why virtually no one re-buys PZero's once the stockers die) and everyone knows they shouldn't be running them in the cold, yet most do because they don't want to spend $1,000 on new rubber when they own a new car to begin with. That's a terrible excuse. Real-world performance matters, and when it comes to real-world performance, good all seasons are going to smoke a summer only tire.

The market for summer only street tires don't make much sense. They fail in most real-world conditions and aren't very good on a track, either. Sell the car with proper all-seasons, then if you want a track tire buy an actual track tire. A summer only street tire is the most useless tire of all because they fail to do anything well.