07-15-2018, 05:58 PM | #15 |
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07-15-2018, 05:58 PM | #16 |
Drives: Love the one you're with Join Date: Sep 2009
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I can understand how you feel OP. I have a Hellcat and my father-in-law has 17SS. While mine has noticeably more power, his is well more mannered and refined. Do I like one over the other? Not really. They are such different cars that I dont feel they really are comparable to each other. I love them both for what they have to offer. You know the old car saleman's saying. There is a seat for every hiney.
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07-15-2018, 06:08 PM | #17 | |
Drives: 2016 SS Join Date: Mar 2016
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07-15-2018, 06:17 PM | #18 | |
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I don't think people are buying lower end model Challengers because they can slap a Hellcat badge on it and make people think it's a Hellcat. They're buying Challengers because they offer the closest approximation to what the old muscle cars provided in their younger days. Also, Dodge didn't screw up the design of the Challenger yet. They kept it mostly the same adding tasteful tweaks (here and there) and adding more power over the years. I agree with the fact that GM doesn't have a platform to do a Chevelle model on. They really didn't have a platform for the 5th gen either, but they made due with a fullsized platform borrowed from Holden and designed a beautiful retro design body around it. Now, they could've also done a Chevelle model off the Zeta too, but that is a moot point now. |
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07-15-2018, 06:34 PM | #19 |
Drives: 2019 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Nov 2016
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Another thread that evolves into a discussion about Camaro sales. Since sales dictate "success," let us all agree that the Toyota Camry is the best non-truck/CUV/SUV offered in the United States.
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07-15-2018, 07:00 PM | #20 | |
Let's try this again...
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07-15-2018, 08:20 PM | #21 | |
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Isn't that why the 4th gen F-body was cancelled at the end of '02? No sales or weak sales means less money available the suites at GM will allocate towards a heavily revised or totally new platform program. CUV's are selling hot so that's why we have a new Blazer for '19 that looks like...well...another CUV with Camaro styling cues. Ford's decision to bow out of the sedan market and concentrate on trucks, CUV's and the Mustang is primarily due to slow sales of sedans in the marketplace. The automakers won't continue to make what doesn't sell. |
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07-15-2018, 08:34 PM | #22 | |
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Profits is what matters to automakers. If you can make $5 billion selling 60,000 a year instead of $3 billion at 100,000 a year, you would be very happy with that. Apple is a prime example of this. Samsung consistently handily outsells Apple in smartphones, but Apple owns everyone on the money they make with the iPhone. In fact they own 79% of the profits in the smartphone market with only 15% marketshare. Only GM of course knows the profit margins and how much money they are making off the Camaro, but volume isn't everything. GM's bankruptcy is to show what happens when volume is put above all else. F-Body was cancelled because it could not meet crash test regs that were going into effect in 2003 and it was not worth the investment to redesign the platform or move the twins to a different platform such as Sigma. From what I gather, Sigma was never really an option for Camaro. Automakers won't continue to make what doesn't generate a profit. |
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07-15-2018, 08:37 PM | #23 |
Drives: 2016 SS Join Date: Mar 2016
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[QUOTE=gringo;10250701]What planet are you living on? Sales is everything for the automakers.
Isn't that why the 4th gen F-body was cancelled at the end of '02? No sales or weak sales means less money available the suites at GM will allocate towards a heavily revised or totally new platform program. CUV's are selling hot so that's why we have a new Blazer for '19 that looks like...well...another CUV with Camaro styling cues. Ford's decision to bow out of the sedan market and concentrate on trucks, CUV's and the Mustang is primarily due to slow sales of sedans in the marketplace. The automakers won't continue to make what doesn't sell.[/QUOT I've yet to buy a car based on production numbers. I've always bought cars that moved me and struck a cord with whatever performance and/or styling queue that spoke to me! I understand bean counters rule the production line, but that never entered into my decision making process. I Like the look of the Challenger styling from the outside and the straight-line performance of the upper level monsters, but driving this v6 rental car version is totally uninspiring. My LT Camaro is basically a rental car level Camaro too, but it is so much more engaging, and feels so much more inspired and modern...in my opinion. |
07-15-2018, 08:38 PM | #24 | |
Drives: 2017 2ss Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Charlotte
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word!
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07-15-2018, 09:17 PM | #25 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro Convertible SS Fifty Join Date: May 2018
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Apples vs Oranges.
Chevy is not Apple. Dodge / Ford is not Samsung. Apple's model is not built on budget items, their model is based on top tier pricing. Samsung's model is all over the place, from budget to still a budget compared to Apple. Yes, Apple's revenue leads the pack (62% to 90% profit) vs Samsung (16% to 18%). But GM is not seeing profits like that from Camaro anymore than Ford is seeing from Mustang. This is a numbers of units game at this level of vehicle (this is not a Lamborghini or Ferrari). The 4th generation Camaro was cancelled, due to low sales. While there are press releases directly from GM on this, here is a quote from CNN "Chevy, a unit of General Motors, decided almost a year ago to discontinue the model due to a drop in demand in the sports car market, where sales have fallen 53 percent from 1990 to 2000." (all you have to do is google "GM to Discontinue Camaro, Firebird") GM went into bankruptcy for not being able to turn a profit on its cars, thanks to the strong unions. GM was tied with Toyota for global sales as late as 2007 (prior to that GM was #1 for years). By the time of their bankruptcy, they were operating at or close to even. In 2006, they attempted to cut fixed costs in NA, by spending $6.8 BILLION to buyout 35,000 hourly employees (~$200K per). Think about that, $6.8 Billion to receive nothing in return from it, other than not having to pay out wages / benefits going forward. Quote:
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07-15-2018, 09:27 PM | #26 | |||
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The high profit margins on those truck based SUV's made them easy money no doubt, but when the market suddenly changed they had nothing really competitive to offer. Quote:
I don't buy the crash test regs argument because Ford was able to meet them with the Fox body based SN-95 Mustang in '03. The crash test regulations was just an excuse to let the platform die because sales were down in the last few years. Instead of modifying or developing a new platform, the money was used for more models and variants based off the highly profitable truck based platforms (Hummer, SSR etc.). Quote:
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07-15-2018, 09:42 PM | #27 |
Drives: Tesla M3 LR-AWD [Former 1SS owner] Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Miami
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OP thinks the Challenger drives like a boat. This has nothing to do with sales. Not sure why it degenerated into that.
Big sales doesn't make it handle any better. Those that love the Challenger so much they have to defend it at every turn should be driving one. The last thing we need is for the Camaro to become a barge on wheels. |
07-15-2018, 09:44 PM | #28 |
Lovin the growl...
Drives: 2018 2SS Join Date: Mar 2017
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My uncle advised me to do the same to keep the miles Low long term. I’m just not sure I would follow the game plan, now that I’m behind the wheel of the 2SS.
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