[BlaqWhole]

GT350 and GT350R are every bit the sports car that any Camaro (costing much less money) is.

I don't even waste time arguing with these guys anymore. Anyone who can't see the Shelbys for the overpriced heaps they are is delusional. The GT350(R) is nowhere close to anything GM puts out costing over $60K. And we still haven seen the 500 up against a similarly priced C7 Z06 or ZR1.

Lol. The only Camaros that the 350s can match are the SSs. And I'd buy a SS over any GT350 any day.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I get that the lt1 starts to fall off after peak torque but that graph is especially severe and while its convenient for your argument there are other graphs that show a much more gradual taper similar to the ls3/ls7 curves you compared it to.

How is the graph severe when the LS3 and LS7 are on the same graph and the same scale? It shows the torque curve of the LT1 in an identical manner to the LS3 and LS7.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by siggy_30

Sales are subjective? Learn something new every day. I need to tell my friends who are in sales about this logic. “Boss, my sales are low, but by golly, the ones who bought were extremely happy! You can’t measure that boss.”

11 second attention span?

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I just realized he said the ss 1le is "about as quick as the pp2" around a track, insinuating that the pp2 is quicker... and that it's "potentially capable of being slightly faster than a pp2 with the same tires" lol.

This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't something already discussed and brought up to these guys before, time after time. They hang their hat on the lightning lap times of the pp2 vs the 1le. The one they know was done by different drivers (editors at that) on different days.

When they already know that when they were run on the Laguna Seca by the same pro driver in Randy Pobst, granted different days, the ss 1le put the faster time up.

Ofcourse the Throttle House comparison were they had the same tires is reduced to "slightly faster", even though it was over a second difference in a small track. 1:11.5 vs 1:12.7. Most of these close match ups are usually seperated by tenths of a second.

So the ss 1le isn't potentially slightly faster on the same tire, it's been faster on the oem tires too.

The gt350 vs the ss 1le is atleast debatable, because the 1le could faster before the 2019 cup 2 tire update for the base gt350, but now the newer gt350s have a tire advantage and did put up a faster Laguna Seca time than the 1le.

Those stang guys are tricky, kind of like the small print the dealership sales guys try to rush you past. But you already know this!

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Here's a dyno chart of the LS3, LS7 and LT1. You can see how the LT1 drops way off after the peak torque at 4600 RPM. It ends up at LS3 torque levels by redline. The LS3 and LS7 both carry their torque curves much better than the LT1.



Ford has always been pushing their engines. Sure, the 4.6 hung around way too long but they made improvements along the way. Ford had the Coyote in development before the 5th gen Camaro was launched. They had the supercharged GT500 well before the Camaro came back. The 662 horsepower GT500 was in the works before the ZL1 was revealed.

I agree, GM suffers from the good enough mindset. They should be looking to push things as far as possible, but they don't. Ford and Dodge both do a much better job of creating interesting engines. GM, no so much.

Of course, this is all before the FPC V8 in the C8 is revealed. Maybe GM is finally getting over the "good enough" mentality.

You still drive a GM product? I would have thought you'd trade in your POS Camaro for a kick azz stang by now. GM doesn't push engine development? We had this discussion a few months ago and you went and disappeared halfway through. Give it a rest already. Should we start a go fund me to help out of that lame Camaro you have?

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by oldman

I must be missing something? I see the LT1 producing WAY more HP (which is a function of torque and RPM) under the usable curve 4800 RPM to 6200 RPM, not even close. The LT1 is a FAR better engine. There is no "drop off" the LT1 is producing so much more torque vs the LS3 that we are just watching a gentle return to the expected torque values of a 6.2 engine. Once RPM is mentioned we are really talking HP and one can see how much MORE HP the LT1 makes in its usable rev range... not even close.

You didn't miss anything he just likes to wine on about lame GM engines.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LESS1

You didn't miss anything he just likes to wine on about lame GM engines.

You fanboys are delusional. The Camaro is going to die off again and you think it’s the greatest car ever.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by radz28

It seems like GM gave up on Camaro right after they dropped the 6th Gen. Slow sales don't help, but their target audience seems quite narrow, IMO. I also think the result of that is a lot more focused, and BETTER car. The result of THAT is a car that most people don't have a place for in their life. If GM can't make money on the car, they'll stop supporting it. I feel like they didn't support it for very long though. There has been no freshness for a few years already, and that, for a good part, wasn't accessible to the masses (i.e. expensive).

That sucks.

Let us not forget that while Frod was fixing issues Chevy was spending big bucks on the brand new C8 platform. Frod has one premier performance car. Which helps with all phases of the product lifecycle. If GM killed off the Corvette (I DON"T WANT THIS... said if) what do you think would happen to poor mustang with the full Engineering might and budget of Chevy behind the Camaro? Game over for horsey car!

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I get that the lt1 starts to fall off after peak torque but that graph is especially severe and while its convenient for your argument there are other graphs that show a much more gradual taper similar to the ls3/ls7 curves you compared it to.

I couldn't agree more.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

GT350 and GT350R are every bit the sports car that any Camaro (costing much less money) is.

I don't even waste time arguing with these guys anymore. Anyone who can't see the Shelbys for the overpriced heaps they are is delusional. The GT350(R) is nowhere close to anything GM puts out costing over $60K. And we still haven seen the 500 up against a similarly priced C7 Z06 or ZR1.

Lol. The only Camaros that the 350s can match are the SSs. And I'd buy a SS over any GT350 any day.

LOL well said, brother!

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You fanboys are delusional. The Camaro is going to die off again and you think it’s the greatest car ever.

Camaro very well may go away again, however this doesn't diminish the fact that it is a superior car to Mustang. Delusion is folks like yourself that like to flaunt sales... and go on about how great your Mustnag aren't.... opps sorry are.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Camaro very well may go away again, however this doesn't diminish the fact that it is a superior car to Mustang. Delusion is folks like yourself that like to flaunt sales... and go on about how great your Mustnag aren't.... opps sorry are.

Haha I don’t even drive a Mustang you clown.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Haha I don’t even drive a Mustang you clown.

Glad you are entertained. Are you sure you don't drive a kick azz stang? Easy to think that when you are usually going on about how Camaro and GM/Chevy are sooooo far behind Frod and their great engines. Go fund me offer still stands if you change your mind.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

True. Plus GM was just trying to meet their contractual agreement with Holden as far as producing the cars they were suppposed to. They literally put nothing into advertising and were just riding it out till it died.

Not to say that it would have been successful if they had tried, but they didn't even try with the SS. On multiple levels imo.

This ^ The SS came here to keep the holden plant moving.

I was not a fan of the SS styling, but I sure wish that car was still around. It would probably be tops on my list when my lease is up. Used ones around me with lots of miles are still fetching top $