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Old 05-04-2018, 04:17 PM   #1
Mountain

 
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To Go Back to My Roots or Not?

A friend of mine suggested that I post up this review of my experiences. I thought about it, and decided to go about it as it comes from a perspective of someone that used to be in the Mustang community, came over to Camaro, and recently almost went back to the Mustang community for a 2019 model.

Originally, the reason why I went away from Mustang is because the 6th Generation didn’t impress me as much as the 6th Generation Camaro did in the aspect of a driver’s car.

With the upgrades done to the 3rd Generation Coyote 5.0L, improved line of transmissions (the revised 6-speed manual and implemented 10-speed automatic), tweaks done to the suspension, tweaks done to the interior, introduction of some neat colors (I was looking at “Need for Green”) and the Level 2 Performance Pack, I was impressed and driven to take a serious look at the refreshed 2018 Mustang.

What did I find?
What did I ultimately decide?

Here are my notes, to which are in respect to the following: my [previous] 2016 Camaro 1SS M6 and a bunch of S550 Mustang GT’s I drove (2017 300A PP1 M6, 2018MY 300A M6, 2018MY 300A A10, 2018MY 301A MRC PP1 M6, 2018MY 301A PP1 A10):

Engine:
Mustang: Fantastic. Such a smooth sweetheart of an engine. Very balanced powertrain. I’m a lover of high revving engines. The added 500 RPM to the Gen3 Coyote was something I noticed moreover than the added power over the 2015-2017 version. It is especially more evident compared to the LT1, as there is nearly 1,000 RPM more. It is a warm welcome as one of the things I wished from the LT1 is a 7,000 RPM redline. That doesn’t sound like much, but that extra hundred RPM would help out on track. The extra power from the Gen3 Coyote really does put the Mustang to heads with the Camaro SS. But, in comparison to the Camaro, after experience the powerband of the LT1, the Gen3 Coyote is a little boring, even though power is very close. You have to get on the Mustang to get out the excitement.

Camaro: Fantastic. A brute. A hot rod engine with a warranty. Simple and effective; a design of iteration. The low end torque makes driving the Camaro a lot more fun to drive – ALL THE TIME. With the A8, due to the torque, the vehicle accelerates so quick through gears, where the RPMs are and what gear you are is something that constantly needs to be on your mind when paddle shifting (the HUD is really useful here). The M6 has much longer gears, so the experience is more… “relaxed”, but still just as fun. In fact, the LT1 low-end torque is so good, you don’t really need to dip in throttle when crawling through traffic – just let up on the clutch pedal slowly. As mentioned, the only thing that makes me a touch disappointed with the LT1 is that I feel it needs a little bit more RPM. A little more RPM would help out on track: sometimes, in certain corners, mostly autocross, but sometimes on road course, it seems you need an “in-between” gear. With increased RPM comes increased strain and friction in an exponential fashion, and likely an increase in RPM redline would cause a shift of lower-range power to the higher-range. I get the constraints and design goals linked to economy. Since I am pointing this out, it may seem like a big deal since it is the only thing remotely negative I can say about the LT1, but, in all actuality, it is a small gripe – a wish list item, but not a necessity.

Conclusion: Both are great powertrains, but the LT1 squeaks out my vote since it makes the car fun to drive in any situation.

Transmission:
Mustang: The MT-82 D4 is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the past versions. So much so, if Ford didn’t actually state it was an MT-82, you would think it was a Tremec, or something completely different. The ratios are revised and make the Performance Pack versions of the car (3.73 final drive gearing) more driver friendly and overall more useable on the street and on the track. Although I, obviously, didn’t drive any of the Mustangs I test drove on track, I can equate it to my experience with my old Mustang GT that I did everything with – street driving, drag racing, road course and autocross. That car came with the 3.73 gearing, to which I eventually swapped to a 3.31 rear gear. The ratios and spread seemed very close to that car with the changed transmission gears (I also ran some overall ratio comparison numbers on Excel). In addition, the actual shift quality is much improved. The previous MT-82’s felt weak and cheap when shifting – you were always left thinking “is this going to break on this shift?” Driving the 2017 car after the 2018 car re-confirmed this, too. Ford improved the MT-82’s semi-remote shifter back when the S550 was introduced; I don’t know if there was any work done for the refresh, but the shifter felt great, but not as nice as the Camaro’s. The clutch is a little different feeling, but, honestly, not enough to be noteworthy to me. I think the 2018 was a little lighter? This is something I don’t typically note when driving cars unless the clutch force is one extreme or another. Engagement/disengagement points are RIGHT where they should be.

Now, the A10: Fantastic transmission. This thing blew me away. Typically, Ford transmission application is lack-luster, as Ford always seems to tune their transmission too… “fluffy”, slow and with strange shifting logic. However, Ford’s iteration of the A10 is dead-on. So fast. So crisp, So smooth. At first, the transmission, being 10-speeds, requires some personal calibration: I think some people who review it think it is “hunting gears”, but, really, it just has a lot of gears to go through (depending on what you are doing). Also, the transmission is smart. Very smart. So it does require some drive time for it to 1. relearn it’s base adaptive tables if it is brand new or it’s logic has been reset or 2. learn YOUR driving characteristics (yes, it does this). The paddle shifting on Ford’s A10 is as close as you’re going to get to DCT shift timing. I’m not talking just from signal-to-shift to actual shifting – I’m talking from driver-input-to-shift to actual shifting; it’s an area the A8, although better in the Camaro than Corvette, falls behind in – a reason I could never get myself to buy an A8 car.

Camaro: The TR-6060. Proven transmission. It has been around for a while (in base-design), and like the LT1, a unit that is the result of constant engineering iterations over years. Everything about the transmission feels quality and durable. It is 99.9% perfect. It would be 100% if the shifter was solid-mount, but the semi-remote shifter on the Camaro is one of the best designs I’ve seen. The none-1LE throw ratios are fine, but I prefer the slightly-reduced 1LE throws – they are perfectly aligned with the car. The clutch GM has is very good. Good feel. Strong. Fast-acting. However, I prefer the Mustang’s engagement points. I feel the Camaro’s clutch engagement points are a little too high off the floor. Maybe this has to do with the clutch’s reserve, from a dynamic standpoint, at higher RPM’s – I don’t know (a problem that has always plagued Mustang). This is something that only takes some time to recalibrate yourself though. Something you end up having to do with any stick car, anyway – learn the clutch, as they are all a little different.

The A8, is a great transmission when left to do its own work. However, I am really bothered by the delay in response to paddle shifting inputs. It seems better than the C7 version, but not by much, if there really is any. Comparatively, to the A10, the automatic shifts seem nearly just as fast, and the logic is also pretty close. But that A10… it is so nice. It just does everything it is supposed to. Good move on GM moving the A10 into the rest of the Camaro lineup. Hopefully, Ford’s paddle shift logic is replicated by GM closely, if not exactly. You take the LT1’s broad power, couple it with the A10’s gearing and shift logic – that will be a real a$$ kicker to a lot of other cars out there.

Conclusion: Simply, the A10 is very fast in automatic mode, as is the GM A8, but it is also very fast and responsive to paddle shifting inputs, too. I will get some Mustang boys riled up on this comment, but I’m going to say it, and my later comments about the Mustang’s chassis will emphasize this:
The A10 is too good for the Mustang.
Although the A8 leaves a bit to be desired, overall, the Camaro gets the win here. But, Ford, good job, REALLY, you are in the right direction!

Chassis/Suspension:
Mustang: It feels like a car. It doesn’t feel like a sports car. It doesn’t feel like a muscle car. It feels like a plain and simple… car. Again, this is coming from a motorsport enthusiast. This goes for the base suspension AND the Performance Package Level 1 (PP1), including MRC. This is an area I always had beef with Ford on, even when I was a DIE-HARD Mustang fan. I get that Mustang is positioned towards being a vehicle that appeals to a very wider variety of customers: motorsports enthusiasts, general car enthusiasts, point-A-to-point-B’ers, weekend drivers, etc. But if you’re going to put a “performance package” or “track package” on a car, make it truly performance oriented and not regular driving-oriented with a little splash of performance thrown in there! Honestly, I plain and simple do not get the point of the base and PP1 suspension, the way Ford develops them. The PP1 is not that much stiffer – it just seems like “WOMBAT” to me… Find a nice place between the base and PP1 suspension, and put that on everything. The PP1 should be what the PP2 is… At least, now, Ford adopted MRC so they can tune for both environments, and a driver can choose. However, Ford, I think failed here too, as I agree with MotorTrend: the MRC calibration on the Performance Pack 1 is still not good enough. It is still too soft. On my test drives, I actually preferred the non-MRC equipped Performance Pack 1 car. It just felt more sporty to me... At least if I were to get a non-MRC car, I could seek out Bilstein or another aftermarket company to get more damping. With Ford’s MRC, you are stuck, unless the aftermarket creates a GOOD controller. I hear Billy Johnson helped with tuning the now available Performance Package 2 (PP2), so there is hope. We all know Ford is capable of calibrating a good MRC and, simply, tuning a suspension: look at the GT350 with and without MRC. I’ve been in a GT350, too – it’s GREAT!
Overall, the Mustang feels OK. The chassis. The suspension. The steering - It all works and does what it needs to, but it didn’t excite me. I didn’t feel connected to the car at all. It felt numb. We’re not talking about “stiff suspension” here. We’re talking about the car working together in harmony. Again, it’s not “bad”, per-say. It’s just not good in relation to a performance car. There is a lot to be desired here, which is why the chassis and suspension aftermarket for Mustang is so large.
It is the lack of connection to the car and feel of not being a vehicle of engineered unity that makes me walk away feeling the A10 is too good of a transmission for the Mustang.

Camaro: Call me biased, but if you deny it you are truly lying to yourself. The Alpha platform of the CTS, ATS and Camaro is fantastic. It is a completely different league, compared to the S550. The suspension is definitely on the sporty side. It’s like GM tuned it for performance and backed it off enough to be daily drivable on the street. This is definitely an area where the average driver, in respect to the Camaro, as the ATS and CTS feel less stiff, may not like. To any driving enthusiast, it is a definite welcome. Moreover, everything about the car feels nicely connected, responsive, solid and in harmony. The vehicle does what it needs to do, you know what the car is doing and it does it well.

Conclusion: In respect to the chassis and suspension, the Camaro and Mustang feel vastly different. It takes no time to get a sense of what either car is about and they are two different perspectives. Simple as that. For me, the Camaro’s chassis and suspension is leaps and bounds better than the Mustang. No comparison.

Interior:
Mustang: Retro turned modern. Very nice design. More beautiful design. Good materials. Riding focused. Semi-useful back seat. Useful trunk. Great outward visibility.

Camaro: Modern turned retro. Very nice design. Smarter design. Good materials. Driving focused. Useless back seat. Semi-useful trunk. OK-ish visibility (forward and front-side are good; rearward is OK and rearward-side is bad/terrible).

Conclusion: Honestly, both, to me, are equally good, with the Mustang slightly better, even though it is less focused as a driver-focused. The rearward-side visibility is lacking enough for me to favor the Mustang.

Exterior:
Conclusion: This I’m not going to go into. The styling is similar, yet different between the two. Honestly, I like both.

End statement:
You need to go horseback riding and are given two (2) choices of a horse, both are equally competent for the ride ahead: one is this majestic, untamed steed that requires some earned trust and finesse to ride; the other is a contemporary, well-trained stallion that needs no introduction and responds in an innate fashion that ensures immediate trust. The former is the Mustang and the latter is the Camaro.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:20 PM   #2
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So, what did I do?

I traded in my '16 1SS for a '17 1SS 1LE. Couldn't be happier. The Mustang GT PP2 didn't seem worth the money, especially compared to the SS 1LE, for what Ford offered in the package. Ford still fails to deliver, for my needs.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:55 PM   #3
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I heard that the A10 wont skip gears in manual mode. Can you confim?
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:22 PM   #4
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Good in-depth review. One point I can agree with wholeheartedly is that the A10 is too good of a transmission to be in the Mustang. Especially the EB Mustang (that just makes no damn sense). And I'm tempted to say it doesn't belong in the SS also. But I think between the two the SS deserves it while the GT doesn't really deserve it. I think for GM it should have been available in the ZL1 only for the 6th Gen and then put into the SS, LS, and LT for the 7th Gen. For Ford it should have been the same way but maybe throw as an option for the Bullitt or GT500 for the S550. Oh well.
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Old 05-07-2018, 06:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasti View Post
I heard that the A10 wont skip gears in manual mode. Can you confim?
The cars I drove didn’t “auto-downshift”, like the Camaro does, if you hold down the paddle. Maybe they changed that in the ‘19 since Ford added rev-match to the M6.
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:35 AM   #6
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Great Post and review! I also moved on from my 16 M6 SS to a new car. And while I told myself I would look at the 2018 GT before buying another car, that did not happen. I really did not want to pay extra for the PP2 since tracking was not a priority for me. And the PP1 seemed hardly worth it if the handling is not that far off the base car.

After reading more about the new GT I just didn't bother driving one. I have rented several and I do like them. But if there was no Camaro, I for sure I would own one. Instead I just skipped over the GT and the SS and got it all with the ZL1. Loaded SSes and GTs are approaching low end ZL1 prices so why not go big? Also since drag racing is more my style I went with the A10. I swore also I would not go auto, but in the end the built in GM M6 bog and an A10 test drive changed my mind. In addition I find myself enjoying long drives more now. Am I getting old? Oops! Too late to worry about that.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
Good in-depth review. One point I can agree with wholeheartedly is that the A10 is too good of a transmission to be in the Mustang. Especially the EB Mustang (that just makes no damn sense). And I'm tempted to say it doesn't belong in the SS also. But I think between the two the SS deserves it while the GT doesn't really deserve it. I think for GM it should have been available in the ZL1 only for the 6th Gen and then put into the SS, LS, and LT for the 7th Gen. For Ford it should have been the same way but maybe throw as an option for the Bullitt or GT500 for the S550. Oh well.
Glad you liked the long read!

The A10 is an advantage. The added number of gear ratios allows for greater, specific tuning towards each engine's power curve. So, it only makes sense to take advantage of that opportunity is possible. But, to me, it just seems like the is a fairly poignant gap of engineering accomplishment between the Ford A10 and the rest of the S550 as a package.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
Great Post and review! I also moved on from my 16 M6 SS to a new car. And while I told myself I would look at the 2018 GT before buying another car, that did not happen. I really did not want to pay extra for the PP2 since tracking was not a priority for me. And the PP1 seemed hardly worth it if the handling is not that far off the base car.

After reading more about the new GT I just didn't bother driving one. I have rented several and I do like them. But if there was no Camaro, I for sure I would own one. Instead I just skipped over the GT and the SS and got it all with the ZL1. Loaded SSes and GTs are approaching low end ZL1 prices so why not go big? Also since drag racing is more my style I went with the A10. I swore also I would not go auto, but in the end the built in GM M6 bog and an A10 test drive changed my mind. In addition I find myself enjoying long drives more now. Am I getting old? Oops! Too late to worry about that.
Thanks for the kudos!

I completely get you. You have the exact reasons why I skipped the Mustang GT (PP1 and PP2). Honestly, for what the PP2 is, I feel you are, financially, better off getting a PP1 (better ABS tuning, chassis tweaks, performance apps and Torsen diff) and buying suspension bits to upgrade it to-and-above what the PP2 is. That is, if you actually track the car. The Mustang seems like it is more of an "add parts" build than an integrated package like the FE4 setup in the SS 1LE and ZL1 or FEA in the ZL1 1LE, to where it more than a matter of going lower, stiffer and wider.

I was the same with the A10 when driving the Mustang. Although I was impressed with the upgrades Ford did with the MT-82-D4, which is how that transmission should've been since 2011, with the PP2 out of my rational thought process, I then began focusing on a PP1 with A10 that I could modify. But, then S550 platform fell short of "wowing" me.

I was half expecting some M6G guys to come on here and bash me. In all honestly, I hope none of those take my comments to heart. I do not hate the Mustang. Far from it! Just, in respect to a driver's car or performance car, I don't think it's it...
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
I completely get you. You have the exact reasons why I skipped the Mustang GT (PP1 and PP2). Honestly, for what the PP2 is, I feel you are, financially, better off getting a PP1 (better ABS tuning, chassis tweaks, performance apps and Torsen diff) and buying suspension bits to upgrade it to-and-above what the PP2 is. That is, if you actually track the car. The Mustang seems like it is more of an "add parts" build than an integrated package like the FE4 setup in the SS 1LE and ZL1 or FEA in the ZL1 1LE, to where it more than a matter of going lower, stiffer and wider.

I was the same with the A10 when driving the Mustang. Although I was impressed with the upgrades Ford did with the MT-82-D4, which is how that transmission should've been since 2011, with the PP2 out of my rational thought process, I then began focusing on a PP1 with A10 that I could modify. But, then S550 platform fell short of "wowing" me.

I was half expecting some M6G guys to come on here and bash me. In all honestly, I hope none of those take my comments to heart. I do not hate the Mustang. Far from it! Just, in respect to a driver's car or performance car, I don't think it's it...
As I said, I am also a fan of the Mustang. I work from home now, but a full lux 2018 A10 GT would be an awesome daily driver to park next to my ZL1 to to commute into the big city. My recycled Rav4 is not nearly as much fun but mostly sits in the back driveway gathering tree dust. Yours is one of the best no fan boy comparisons of the two I have read. What would the Mustangers have to complain about?
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
I completely get you. You have the exact reasons why I skipped the Mustang GT (PP1 and PP2). Honestly, for what the PP2 is, I feel you are, financially, better off getting a PP1 (better ABS tuning, chassis tweaks, performance apps and Torsen diff) and buying suspension bits to upgrade it to-and-above what the PP2 is.
Like most factory-offered track-oriented upgrades, the PP2 is best intended for those who don't want to go through the development process themselves. Buy it and pretty much forget about it, vs "did I pick the right kit for me?" or "what's it trying to tell me I need to do now?".

On the other hand, I don't think you absolutely need to be tracking your car in order to appreciate either the PP2 or the SS 1LE just in street driving.


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