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Old 09-16-2021, 09:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
I doubt it - very limited production, this is a "send off" vehicle

Silent e cars from here to the Tribulation
Cadillac already announced production will continue to at least the 2024 model year. They will make as many as they can considering the current chip restraints.
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Old 09-16-2021, 09:11 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by SFV1LE View Post
Anyone with a C6 ZL1 should be in a good place to sell and walk away with very little depreciation. The problem would be getting a fair price below MSRP on the Blackwing. I wont pay over MSRP on any car, especially a Cadillac.
Plenty of dealers in the USA ordering these cars for MSRP.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:31 AM   #45
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Since standardization of HP testing and certifications, "under rating" is a thing of the past. People speculated the same about Hellcats being "under rated" and it never turned out to be true. There are always happy dynos and perhaps even some factory freaks but if an engine is certified 668 HP, that means that it truly is 668 HP after averaging.
I agree for American manufacturers that follow the SAE testing and rating procedure. However, and I don't have direct proof of this, but BMW and Porsche engines are typically quicker than we expect for their hp rating because I suspect they rate the power at worst case scenarios, i.e., 100F and 6000' elevation for a nasty high DA. Then at 70F and 500' elev. they make gobs more power.

How else does a '21 911 Turbo S that weighs 3,630 lbs and has "only" 640 hp, beat a Shelby GT500 from a roll despite a worse power to weight ratio?

Or, how does the new M3 Competition that weighs 3,800 lbs and has "only" 503 hp trap 125 mph in the 1/4 mile (Motor trend got 125.6 mph with a lighter car and C&D went 124 mph with a heavier car)? It also traps several mph more than a C8, despite having similar hp ratings and being 150-200 lbs heavier than the C8.

Or the 2018 911 GT2 RS that has the "same" power to weight ratio as a 2019 ZR1 (4.8 lbs/hp), but traps 140 mph compared to 131 mph by the ZR1 in the same comparison test.

Obviously, the German cars are rated differently than the American cars.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:38 AM   #46
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That M3 won't last so it doesn't really matter. There's no getting around the fact that to push a 3L engine to make the power that a 6.2L engine makes, you've got to really push that engine very hard. BMW isn't known for reliability.
Generally agree - but aside from the crank hub issue, the previous (S55) engine was fairly reliable and making good power to 100k miles. The S58 addressed the crank hub and is beefed up throughout. It doesn't seem possible pushing 24 psi (if driven hard) but they seem to hold up ok overall - if anything reliability has improved over the years. I'd be worried about blowby and intakes slathered in oil, but most owners don't seem to care (popular lease vehicles)

Main point is the new M3/4 is putting down about 500 wheel on a dyno which is very impressive for a 3 L
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:49 AM   #47
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I love the Caddy CT5 V Blackwing honestly.....but the price ....not so much
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:03 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
It says 11.3 @ 129 mph.

GM quotes 11.4 @ 127 mph for the ZL1 auto.

The +2 mph higher trap speed despite being heavier and only 18 more hp is likely because the CT5 has a lower drag coefficient than the ZL1, allowing it to accelerate slightly quicker at >100 mph. Which could also explain the top speed discrepancy: ZL1 is 198 mph (officially w/ two way average), while GM quotes 200+ mph for the CT5 V BW.
It's probably a J57 / CCB brake car tested too both for the acceleration and track times.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
Generally agree - but aside from the crank hub issue, the previous (S55) engine was fairly reliable and making good power to 100k miles. The S58 addressed the crank hub and is beefed up throughout. It doesn't seem possible pushing 24 psi (if driven hard) but they seem to hold up ok overall - if anything reliability has improved over the years. I'd be worried about blowby and intakes slathered in oil, but most owners don't seem to care (popular lease vehicles)

Main point is the new M3/4 is putting down about 500 wheel on a dyno which is very impressive for a 3 L
If this is true about BMW and specifically M cars, why are there more very old BMWs running 10/10s on hot track days in CA desert, and kicking new car butt, than any other track car except maybe C5 Corvettes?

Even the E46 M3, which was known for bearing failures, is one of the most competitive track cars to this day, especially on technical tracks. Say what you want about the greatness of the original M3 which I love and agree is the best looking, the E46 M3 was the best balanced and overall IMO. Some of these motors have 100k miles and are still running strong, bearings have been replaced without engine removal which keeps it fairly cheap.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:34 PM   #50
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While the E46 is decent (with proper oil and bearing service, 10W-60 is just dumb) I'd take an SS 1LE any day for the track if you're going the n/a route. See C&D Lightning Lap "every car"

Saying old BMWs "kick new car butt" is a hopelessly vague and unsubstantiated comment
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
Generally agree - but aside from the crank hub issue, the previous (S55) engine was fairly reliable and making good power to 100k miles. The S58 addressed the crank hub and is beefed up throughout. It doesn't seem possible pushing 24 psi (if driven hard) but they seem to hold up ok overall - if anything reliability has improved over the years. I'd be worried about blowby and intakes slathered in oil, but most owners don't seem to care (popular lease vehicles)

Main point is the new M3/4 is putting down about 500 wheel on a dyno which is very impressive for a 3 L
Its a trade-off though, the Caddy could make 800hp or 900hp out of a 6.2L but something is obviously compromised in the process. GM chose to make a very reliable 668hp out of 6.2L. Its not as-if BMW has some super-duper superior design engine, they're just pushing the limits of their engine further than the GM is.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:51 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
While the E46 is decent (with proper oil and bearing service, 10W-60 is just dumb) I'd take an SS 1LE any day for the track if you're going the n/a route. See C&D Lightning Lap "every car"

Saying old BMWs "kick new car butt" is a hopelessly vague and unsubstantiated comment
You clearly dont spend enough time at the track, come to the track... you'll get all the clarification and substantiation you need to shut yourself up in about an hour at any decent event. You're an armchair racer basing everything on things like C&D Lightning Lap, lol

The track rats love the E46, of course a fresh SS1LE is a nice car on track. The E46 M3 is an all time great
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:01 PM   #53
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Lightning Lap is useful to compare stock cars - trying to compare modded cars is worthless speculation. An SS1LE kicks the sh*t out of your beloved E46 stock for stock, I don't care what track it is - period. You sound like another BMW fanboi who thinks those cars walk on water

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Originally Posted by Z OH 6 View Post
Its a trade-off though, the Caddy could make 800hp or 900hp out of a 6.2L but something is obviously compromised in the process. GM chose to make a very reliable 668hp out of 6.2L. Its not as-if BMW has some super-duper superior design engine, they're just pushing the limits of their engine further than the GM is.
The LT4 always needed a larger blower and ~15 psi - I think most people agree with that, and it would still be very reliable (plus a new oil pump)
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:31 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
Lightning Lap is useful to compare stock cars - trying to compare modded cars is worthless speculation. An SS1LE kicks the sh*t out of your beloved E46 stock for stock, I don't care what track it is - period. You sound like another BMW fanboi who thinks those cars walk on water



The LT4 always needed a larger blower and ~15 psi - I think most people agree with that, and it would still be very reliable (plus a new oil pump)
The point is, the more power you make from an engine, reliability goes down.
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
Lightning Lap is useful to compare stock cars - trying to compare modded cars is worthless speculation. An SS1LE kicks the sh*t out of your beloved E46 stock for stock, I don't care what track it is - period. You sound like another BMW fanboi who thinks those cars walk on water



The LT4 always needed a larger blower and ~15 psi - I think most people agree with that, and it would still be very reliable (plus a new oil pump)
You're an armchair racer, you have no track experience so I don't respect your knowledge or skills. If you had spent any significant time on track you would know the truth, so clearly you haven't. I have no interest in trying to explain this to you, but other track rats here are laughing at you. Stick to magazines and video games.

I'm not a fanboi, I'm a ZL1 guy. I just know what they can do on technical track in the hands of a great driver based on what I've watched them do dozens of days, and you don't.
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:54 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ZX-10R View Post
Lightning Lap is useful to compare stock cars - trying to compare modded cars is worthless speculation. An SS1LE kicks the sh*t out of your beloved E46 stock for stock, I don't care what track it is - period. You sound like another BMW fanboi who thinks those cars walk on water



The LT4 always needed a larger blower and ~15 psi - I think most people agree with that, and it would still be very reliable (plus a new oil pump)
The funny thing here is, the Alpha chassis was developed by reverse engineering and studying the E46 chassis.
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