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Old 10-27-2019, 05:45 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by 3.8TransAM View Post
It's about the money flow, always follow the money flow. Domestic manufacturer car will benefit 3 Americans. Foreign manufacturer car will benefit 1 American. Where does the money go? Where it is designed? Where is the overhead? This is simple fact that can be found over and over again. Or carry on sending your money overseas.

So where is the win? Below stand wages, check that box. No property taxes paid, check that box. Free land? Check that box. Oh wait, where does all the money still go? Over seas again
Mostly not accurate. That is an old statistic the UAW throws around but is no longer correct. I have close family that works at a Toyota plant in the US. The plant has long since lost any tax abatement and pays millions in taxes every year. It has provided thousands of good jobs for Americans for over 15 years. The economic impact of that plant is huge, ongoing and growing. Also, GM, Ford, FCA would also get tax abatements if they built a new plant. But they are very unlikely to do so because it will be strangled by the UAW where they can build a plant in Mexico without the union. If the UAW really wants more jobs in the US, make it easier and more competitive for GM to do so. Instead they do the opposite and drive jobs away.

Suppliers of all sorts have also built plants in the area, many with no local tax incentives. I have other close family that works at a supplier making brake parts that go to Toyota and other manufacturers including domestics. Supply chain, manufacturing, distribution, and sales are all employing Americans. Profits for Toyota are reinvested in the US and returned to shareholders. Any American can buy shares of Toyota, just like GM, and benefit from the profits. The thousands of American workers at the plant are extremely satisfied, treated well, paid fairly (less than the UAW), proud of the product they build and absolutely do not want a union. They do not see Toyota as the evil enemy to battle, like the UAW sees the American manufacturers.

Let's say you need a new roof put on your house. You get three bids. Which one of these do you choose?

1. Mex roofing - $10,000. These guys are Mexicans and working in the US legally. They are a small crew but your neighbors had some work done and said they were great. Prompt and say they can do the job in less time than the others since they will work long hours to get it done so they can go get the next job. They seem really hungry for the work and interested in doing a good job. You are pretty sure some of the profits from the job will go back to support their family in Mexico but some will also stay in the area.

2. Sunshine roofing - $20,000. These guys are a small local crew of Americans from the area. You know the owner is from your town. They have great marketing and nice trucks. They seem well organized and have a great reputation for quality work. You know all the money paid to them will stay in the area. The owner is said to pay his guys well and treat them fairly, it is known as a good place to work.

3. Union roofing - $30,000. These guys are also Americans and members in a large construction trades union. As such, they have a rate card that is higher than the others. They also have crew requirements for things like 2 crew foremen onsite at all times, paid at a high rate, although you aren't sure what they do exactly. They require that each role on the job be staffed only by a Union roofing person trained in that specific area, so you need a separate nail guy, a tear-off guy, etc. The total crew size is twice that of the others. They also have strict work hours so the job will take longer than the others. They live in the area so most of the money will stay in the area, but you know some of the money goes back to the union organization located in a different state.
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Old 10-27-2019, 06:21 PM   #296
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Three made up roofing companies with made up prices,and made up levels of enthusiasm for jobs, and a anti union bias. Not realistic but I like your dedication to your made up companies.
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Old 10-27-2019, 06:37 PM   #297
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Three made up roofing companies with made up prices,and made up levels of enthusiasm for jobs, and a anti union bias. Not realistic but I like your dedication to your made up companies.
Any comments on paragraphs 1 and 2...?
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Old 10-28-2019, 07:45 PM   #298
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Any comments on paragraphs 1 and 2...?

Yes you are incorrect. A vehicle made by an American manufacturer directly benefits 3 Americans with employment. A foreign manufacturer really only employs 1 American. Argue all you want but this is still considered correct to this day in lefty or righty articles. All the ancillary stuff like restaurants, convenience stores and crap will happen regardless. Since those are such high paying in high demand jobs, maybe we should all work there and then wonder why we can't afford a new car.
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Old 10-28-2019, 07:50 PM   #299
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Do we really need to do a pole, it seems you’re the only union suck up on this tread

I'm educated enough to use poll the correct way versus pole as in fence pole.......



Must be the suck up in me. I've been on both sides of the fence, I just guess you've been magically lucky your whole life and born with a silver spoon.


I've never said unions are great, but I will stick up for that they have a point. Same goes for many corporations and companies that treat their employees like shit. Middle ground is usually smartest ground, but one or the other isn't smart enough to get there.



90% of the people posting wouldn't make it on a 12 hour factory shift. Same goes for people that trash talk mechanics, they wouldn't make a living at it either. So they can only resort to trash talking it. It's like people in here using the two GM factories that have the lowest make rate per hour as how easy the job is, when that is a pure exception at the Vette plant.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:08 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by 3.8TransAM View Post
I'm educated enough to use poll the correct way versus pole as in fence pole.......



Must be the suck up in me. I've been on both sides of the fence, I just guess you've been magically lucky your whole life and born with a silver spoon.


I've never said unions are great, but I will stick up for that they have a point. Same goes for many corporations and companies that treat their employees like shit. Middle ground is usually smartest ground, but one or the other isn't smart enough to get there.



90% of the people posting wouldn't make it on a 12 hour factory shift. Same goes for people that trash talk mechanics, they wouldn't make a living at it either. So they can only resort to trash talking it. It's like people in here using the two GM factories that have the lowest make rate per hour as how easy the job is, when that is a pure exception at the Vette plant.
A job is neither guaranteed or promised in this country. If you feel your employer is treating you like crap you are free to quit and find a job elsewhere. Likewise, if an employer does not find your performance satisfactory they are free to fire you.

I find your questioning on whether people can work a 12 hour shift at a factory quite naive. As if a union is the only way people can survive such a thing..... the Honda factory in Marrysville, Ohio has had an excellent employment record for 40 years.

How did those poor people ever do it without a union?
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:17 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by 3.8TransAM View Post
Yes you are incorrect. A vehicle made by an American manufacturer directly benefits 3 Americans with employment. A foreign manufacturer really only employs 1 American. Argue all you want but this is still considered correct to this day in lefty or righty articles. All the ancillary stuff like restaurants, convenience stores and crap will happen regardless. Since those are such high paying in high demand jobs, maybe we should all work there and then wonder why we can't afford a new car.
You're incorrect, or at least being overly simplistic in a way that's calculated to support your overall argument. Foreign manufacturers build factories here that employ not just line workers, but also engineers to design products and management to run those facilities. I see it all the time in aerospace.

In any event, that's no reason to support UNION employment, only American. Look at all the crap Boeing had to put up with a few years ago when they decided to build their additional 787 line in right to work South Carolina rather than closed shop Washington. Even after their already highly paid SC workforce voted NOT to join the UAW for that site, the UAW got in touch with their government friends at the NLRB and the government sued Boeing anyway, while union sympathizers in the local workforce simultaneously harassed and cajoled their fellow workers in the trenches.

That's the UAW for you: supporting workers' rights, unless workers support the WRONG rights (according to the union; typically rights where the union doesn't get a cut), in which case they're happy to stand against workers - for the sadly mistaken workers' own good, of course, even if they need to insinuate - or worse - a threat or two at those mistaken workers to get them on the bandwagon.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:32 PM   #302
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As someone who works for a union (International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers), they can be good, but i can also agree on the fact that some are not good for companies when they demand too much. Seems like the UAW is pretty greedy when it comes to what they want vs what the workers want/need and is putting more financial strain on the company than necessary. Also working here in Kansas City where there is a Ford and GM plant nearby, i've also heard stories of people being completely drunk, getting injured on the job and still keeping their job, while someone else makes one mistake and is gone, depending on the union rep under UAW. Those are just rumors I've heard, but you hear the same rumors from a lot of different people with different situations and it makes you think. I've also worked for a company without a union and I can say I would have rather not had a union there considering the state that was unionized for that field went without work for nearly 2 years because the company didn't care and didn't give in to what the union wanted, which was good old Spectrum(Charter/TWC).

So to put it simply... In my current job I'm glad i have a good union, because it provides good wages, and safety nets for the employees to not get screwed by the company, but at my old job I was glad to not have a union putting me out of work for an unknown period of time that I couldn't afford to miss out on.
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:16 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by 3.8TransAM View Post
Yes you are incorrect. A vehicle made by an American manufacturer directly benefits 3 Americans with employment. A foreign manufacturer really only employs 1 American. Argue all you want but this is still considered correct to this day in lefty or righty articles. All the ancillary stuff like restaurants, convenience stores and crap will happen regardless. Since those are such high paying in high demand jobs, maybe we should all work there and then wonder why we can't afford a new car.
Not sure what exactly I was incorrect on... your comments though do a commendable job in building the self esteem of those who work at “restaurants and convenience stores and crap”. Are these jobs that would be beneath an overcompensated union employee who’s sense of entitlement has strangled the hand that feeds?
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:17 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Petrol Head View Post
A job is neither guaranteed or promised in this country. If you feel your employer is treating you like crap you are free to quit and find a job elsewhere. Likewise, if an employer does not find your performance satisfactory they are free to fire you.

I find your questioning on whether people can work a 12 hour shift at a factory quite naive. As if a union is the only way people can survive such a thing..... the Honda factory in Marrysville, Ohio has had an excellent employment record for 40 years.

How did those poor people ever do it without a union?





I never said unions are the only way you could survive a 12 hr shift. I said most of the people here whining and crying about folks making a living could not do a full time assembly job on the line.



Using that logic at my last job that was non union I watched people play the "You're just doing it to me because I'm black", "You're doing that to me because I'm a woman" and my favorite one "You're just trying to do that to me because I'm white and you didn't do it to the guy who was black", so where is the insanity at? No one is promised crap union or non union. One at least gives you a real reprieve if you get screwed over legitimately.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3 View Post
You're incorrect, or at least being overly simplistic in a way that's calculated to support your overall argument. Foreign manufacturers build factories here that employ not just line workers, but also engineers to design products and management to run those facilities. I see it all the time in aerospace.

In any event, that's no reason to support UNION employment, only American. Look at all the crap Boeing had to put up with a few years ago when they decided to build their additional 787 line in right to work South Carolina rather than closed shop Washington. Even after their already highly paid SC workforce voted NOT to join the UAW for that site, the UAW got in touch with their government friends at the NLRB and the government sued Boeing anyway, while union sympathizers in the local workforce simultaneously harassed and cajoled their fellow workers in the trenches.

That's the UAW for you: supporting workers' rights, unless workers support the WRONG rights (according to the union; typically rights where the union doesn't get a cut), in which case they're happy to stand against workers - for the sadly mistaken workers' own good, of course, even if they need to insinuate - or worse - a threat or two at those mistaken workers to get them on the bandwagon.

Just the same way you like rationalizing that Honda, Toyota, etc overhead is remotely equal in this country to the overhead, designers, management, engineers, etc of Ford or GM? The money flow is where the jobs are, the money flows overseas where the majority of their overhead is located plain and simple.


I still laugh when people have no clue where the costs come from in a car. Labor is under 10% and you're still out to screw the guy putting them together.


Obama in another one of his wonderful legacies to us put more cost into cars with the 2012 EPA mandates than any contract with the UAW will, put please quit ignoring the facts. Just another thing he never backed up his promises on.
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:21 PM   #305
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Not sure what exactly I was incorrect on... your comments though do a commendable job in building the self esteem of those who work at “restaurants and convenience stores and crap”. Jobs that would be beneath an overpaid union employee who’s sense of entitlement has strangled the hand that feeds?

Now we are going to play the virtue angle? I must remember my years of entitlement when I was scrubbing toilets and flipping burgers and moved myself far far beyond that because I worked for it and I wanted it. I'm supposed to feel bad about it now or what? OR is it because I'm union now?
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:39 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by 3.8TransAM View Post
I'm educated enough to use poll the correct way versus pole as in fence pole.......



Must be the suck up in me. I've been on both sides of the fence, I just guess you've been magically lucky your whole life and born with a silver spoon.
Actually, I had it correct. I was wondering how long it would take you to catch it. That was my underlying humor / comment about others on the forum having to take the pole or shaft listening to all your union rhetoric.


And FYI no magic here just hard work all my life.. Didn't anyone ever tell you never guess or assume?
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:42 PM   #307
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Why so much hate for the minority, only 10% of the US workforce is part of a Union so....???? I mean really, with the UAW strike, did anyone freaking die from it? what, you had to wait a bit to get your car ordered? I mean, talk about first world problems.

If collective bargaining would apply to the entire sector, then there would be no advantage for the "foreign" makes. Yes, certain parts of the world operate with this concept.

Capitalism and Unions are not antithetical, many capitalist systems outside of the United States work collaboratively with the Union, as opposed to the hostile nature of the relationship here in the US, and are insanely profitable. In fact, VW management wanted to unionize here in the US, but the workers are so opposed to the idea (of earning higher pay and having a seat at the table with management? or maybe cuz someone has taught them that Unions are communist or anti-american or something) they voted against management's desire to unionize.
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:24 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by DenverTaco07 View Post
Why so much hate for the minority, only 10% of the US workforce is part of a Union so....???? I mean really, with the UAW strike, did anyone freaking die from it? what, you had to wait a bit to get your car ordered? I mean, talk about first world problems.

If collective bargaining would apply to the entire sector, then there would be no advantage for the "foreign" makes. Yes, certain parts of the world operate with this concept.

Capitalism and Unions are not antithetical, many capitalist systems outside of the United States work collaboratively with the Union, as opposed to the hostile nature of the relationship here in the US, and are insanely profitable. In fact, VW management wanted to unionize here in the US, but the workers are so opposed to the idea (of earning higher pay and having a seat at the table with management? or maybe cuz someone has taught them that Unions are communist or anti-american or something) they voted against management's desire to unionize.

They're just pissed because the reality is Obama in 2012 added more to the cost of their cars than the GM strike ever would.
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