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Old 12-29-2020, 01:59 PM   #7421
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Originally Posted by 2013ZL1FUN View Post
The latest incarnation of modern Camaros, 5th Gen up, don`t look that good. Until the look is changed, people are not going to be accepting of this car, especially for new to the genre buyers.



I'm not sure the looks are as much an issue as practicality, visibility, daily driveability.


Visibility is terrible compared to competition.


Practicality is terrible compared to competition.


Competition here would be similar coupes - Audi A5/S5, BMW 2/4, Mercedes C/E coupes, Mustang, Challenger.


I love my camaro and the feel but you are sacrificing compared to almost any competition that is similarly affordable.
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Old 12-29-2020, 02:24 PM   #7422
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Do people really care about practicality or visibility on a car in this segment? I don't. The 5th gen wasn't practical in any way. But if performance isn't the problem (it's not) relative to the competition, and it looks the part (subjective), then I guess you could be onto something. This car does what it was built to do, in many cases better than the competition, but it's not enough. When Chevy is doing the autopsy in the next few years, they'll have to figure it out for the Camaro EV because they're likely going to lose the traditional muscle car guy/gal.
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Old 12-29-2020, 02:51 PM   #7423
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Do people really care about practicality or visibility on a car in this segment? I don't. The 5th gen wasn't practical in any way. But if performance isn't the problem (it's not) relative to the competition, and it looks the part (subjective), then I guess you could be onto something. This car does what it was built to do, in many cases better than the competition, but it's not enough. When Chevy is doing the autopsy in the next few years, they'll have to figure it out for the Camaro EV because they're likely going to lose the traditional muscle car guy/gal.

Judging by sales numbers, yes people do care. I case, but not enough to get me into a Challenger - yet.



It is the first comment everyone makes on getting in the car, "wow it really is a bunker."
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Old 12-29-2020, 03:36 PM   #7424
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So why would power upgrades improve the situation as you suggested?
Itís not about performance. Itís about the number, itís about the hype. Thereís a reason people paid a premium for the GT350, when itís not much better than the SS1LE. Thereís a reason Dodge sells more Challengers than GM sells Camaros, despite being worse in most areas and not having a convertible.
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Old 12-29-2020, 04:43 PM   #7425
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Itís not about performance. Itís about the number, itís about the hype. Thereís a reason people paid a premium for the GT350, when itís not much better than the SS1LE. Thereís a reason Dodge sells more Challengers than GM sells Camaros, despite being worse in most areas and not having a convertible.
So what's the number? It would take an LT5 right? Isn't that 20k-ish before you even build the car itself. The ZL1-1LE is a monster but it's already 80k. You're asking for a 1LE"R" approaching or into 6 digits. There are probably like 12 people that would buy it over a C8.

I'd love more enthusiasm from GM on this side of the isle, but it's gone. They don't care. It might be pessimistic, true, but GM's current mission dictates ICE trucks/SUVs pay for our electric future.
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Old 12-29-2020, 05:50 PM   #7426
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A real shame people aren't buying the 16 and up camaro. Absolutely insane performance cars. They definitely aren't lookers though. Mustangs are also ugly but sell for some reason.

It's stunning to me a relatively unchanged, mostly straight-line performer like the Chally sells like it does.
the 16-18s look beautiful and they sold fine the first two years. they botched the styling and stopped any marketing of the car whatsoever. Nothing even online, no movie appearances. zilch.
the mustang looks great as well. if you think it looks bad see 1974-1993. actually the next decade was only 'okay' as well.
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Old 12-29-2020, 06:58 PM   #7427
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So what's the number? It would take an LT5 right? Isn't that 20k-ish before you even build the car itself. The ZL1-1LE is a monster but it's already 80k. You're asking for a 1LE"R" approaching or into 6 digits. There are probably like 12 people that would buy it over a C8.

I'd love more enthusiasm from GM on this side of the isle, but it's gone. They don't care. It might be pessimistic, true, but GM's current mission dictates ICE trucks/SUVs pay for our electric future.
Itís not about an exact number, itís about making more. Thatís what I meant. The Camaro hasnít seen a power bump since the ZL1 came out. The Mustang and Challenger have seen several since their release. GM puts no effort into the Camaro. The Camaro is the leftover dinner of the car world. Itís a bunch of second hand scraps thrown together. Add on the fact that they phoned in the design and ignored all criticisms of the previous gen. Itís no wonder sales have tanked.

Thereís zero reason for an LT5 Camaro to be 100k. It should be ~75k. The GT500 base is about that and it has numerous unique parts, including the engine (that makes more power than the top Corvette at the time) and a DTC. If it wasnít for the chassis being world class, the Camaro would be a mediocre car. Honestly, chassis engineering is about the only thing GM does well. Their exterior designs are ok, their interior choices have been issues for a long time. Their automatic transmissions have been really bad.
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Old 01-04-2021, 11:01 AM   #7428
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Massachusetts is joining California in pushing for EV only new car sales in 2035. https://www.republicworld.com/world-...y-by-2035.html
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Old 01-04-2021, 03:55 PM   #7429
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Originally Posted by snizzle View Post
Do people really care about practicality or visibility on a car in this segment? I don't. The 5th gen wasn't practical in any way. But if performance isn't the problem (it's not) relative to the competition, and it looks the part (subjective), then I guess you could be onto something. This car does what it was built to do, in many cases better than the competition, but it's not enough. When Chevy is doing the autopsy in the next few years, they'll have to figure it out for the Camaro EV because they're likely going to lose the traditional muscle car guy/gal.
Yes they do care. People on enthusiast sites always seem to forget that the bread and butter of these cars is the lower trims. only 30-40% of all Camaros sold are V-8 models, that means 60-70% are 4s and 6s. Vast majority of those buyers aren't gonna care if the car laps the ring in X amount of time, or if it does the 1/4 in 11.99 or 12.1 seconds. They care if it looks cool and works for them as a daily driver. Those buyers aren't gonna say well the performance overrides any little inconvenience.

The camaro as a performance car is insane at what it can do, problem is that's only 30-40% of the buyers. GM IMO focused to hard on what the minority wanted which was smaller, lighter, faster. The problem is the Camaro is a bad coupe, especially compared to its direct rivals Mustang and Challenger.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 01-04-2021, 06:32 PM   #7430
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^^ Well said.
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Old 01-05-2021, 09:41 AM   #7431
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Thanks Martin,

At least to me that's the only logical explanation. The whole segment is shrinking, but Camaro is hit the worst but it offers the best performance in the class, best handling in the class, and the performance to dollar ratio is insane yet its the worst selling vehicle in it's class for the majority of it's life and now has been hit the hardest since the segment is shrinking. The only things the other two do better is they are better at being cars. Even if it's only marginally better that can make a difference. Especially to someone who is making a decision based on a 15-20 minute test drive.
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Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 01-05-2021, 09:49 AM   #7432
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Old 01-05-2021, 10:23 AM   #7433
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Looks promising. A nice addition to the ICE column. No V-8, though. Still will keep an eye on them. Maybe upgrade from the '17 Impala in a few years. Good info.
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Old 01-05-2021, 10:52 AM   #7434
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Looks promising. A nice addition to the ICE column. No V-8, though. Still will keep an eye on them. Maybe upgrade from the '17 Impala in a few years. Good info.
CT5-V Blackwing has an LT4.
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