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Old 12-05-2019, 05:20 PM   #1
HCI2000SS

 
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AFM V4 mode

So I got to thinking, and was hoping someone might have an answer to this. When the car transitions into V4 mode and has the obvious throb or shudder type feeling, is that causing accelerated wear on the trans and or torque converter? I had the latest fluid/flush done (and it seems okay right now) but the constant transitioning in and out of V4 mode feels like a mild form of shuddering. If disabling it doesn't help prolong the life of the torque converter and whatnot then I probably wouldn't even bother, but if it helps it would be more than worth it in my opinion
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:19 PM   #2
cgdelena
 
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My '19 does the shift in and out seamlessly without any hint except the indicator on the dash.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:26 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgdelena View Post
My '19 does the shift in and out seamlessly without any hint except the indicator on the dash.
Maybe GM revised that for the 2019 models then. Seems like most experience it a little with the 2016-2018 models
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:59 PM   #4
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I also can't feel the transition to V4 mode but the theory is that it causes the torque converter issue. I have the Range Unit which prevents the AFM V4 from engaging. I unplugged it to see what would happen and the shutter returned within 1000 miles. I have 9500 miles on My 2017 SS and have had the flush done twice. I have extended warranty so not really worried about weather or not it returns after the last flush with Mobil 1 syn. Mine gets 2 to 3 mpg less with the Range unit plugged in. I would rather it fail and GM replaces the TC than wait till after my extended warranty runs out and I would have to pay for it.
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigss50 View Post
I also can't feel the transition to V4 mode but the theory is that it causes the torque converter issue. I have the Range Unit which prevents the AFM V4 from engaging. I unplugged it to see what would happen and the shutter returned within 1000 miles. I have 9500 miles on My 2017 SS and have had the flush done twice. I have extended warranty so not really worried about weather or not it returns after the last flush with Mobil 1 syn. Mine gets 2 to 3 mpg less with the Range unit plugged in. I would rather it fail and GM replaces the TC than wait till after my extended warranty runs out and I would have to pay for it.
Thanks for the reply. I've also heard the "theory" that the V4 mode causes the shudder as well, but I'm wondering if there is any hard evidence that confirms this. Or is it possible that what appears like shudder is actually something else entirely only when in V4 mode. Know what I mean? What I feel when it kicks in is not a big deal, but if it's directly causing damage to the torque converter, then I'm getting a range device for sure.
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:47 PM   #6
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I have a little over 15K miles on my 2018 V6 RS and have never felt anything when switching from V6 to V4 mode. I'm hoping that it stays that way. We'll see.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:03 PM   #7
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I don't think that anyone can prove with 100% certainty that V4 directly harms the TC, but it most definitely locks and unlocks more often when V4 is enabled, and shifts much more often as well.
That frequent churn while attempting to hold speed and power as you drive down the road cannot be good for any part of the drive train long-term.

But yes, the shudder can be a very real and serious thing.

I too now have a Range and my car has a far more solid feel.
It cost me about 1.5mpg overall but I do mostly highway driving.
I tried removing it for a couple of days and could quite easily easily feel all the dithering in and out of lockup and gears and found it extremely annoying.
So I put it back in where it remains.

I changed the fluid myself recently even though I did not have the TC shudder (yet).
I want to take no chances.
It really isn't difficult to do by the way and I was able to change out around 8 full quarts easily.
So although not as good as an actual flush, that wasn't bad either.

FWIW.......
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:23 AM   #8
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34000 on my 2017 and I have never felt a thing switching from 8 to 4 or back and never had A8 shudder either. I do feel a transition when switching drive modes at speed Tour to Sport or Track, Sport to Track but not Track to Sport or Tour, or Sport to Tour.
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYguy View Post
I don't think that anyone can prove with 100% certainty that V4 directly harms the TC, but it most definitely locks and unlocks more often when V4 is enabled, and shifts much more often as well.
That frequent churn while attempting to hold speed and power as you drive down the road cannot be good for any part of the drive train long-term.

But yes, the shudder can be a very real and serious thing.

I too now have a Range and my car has a far more solid feel.
It cost me about 1.5mpg overall but I do mostly highway driving.
I tried removing it for a couple of days and could quite easily easily feel all the dithering in and out of lockup and gears and found it extremely annoying.
So I put it back in where it remains.

I changed the fluid myself recently even though I did not have the TC shudder (yet).
I want to take no chances.
It really isn't difficult to do by the way and I was able to change out around 8 full quarts easily.
So although not as good as an actual flush, that wasn't bad either.

FWIW.......
With this thought in mind, my line of thinking says that being in V4 can most definitely cause potential TC damage due to the increase shifting and locking and unlocking of the TC. Weather that damage and or increased wear is measurable or not seems unclear right now
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYguy View Post
I don't think that anyone can prove with 100% certainty that V4 directly harms the TC, but it most definitely locks and unlocks more often when V4 is enabled, and shifts much more often as well.
That frequent churn while attempting to hold speed and power as you drive down the road cannot be good for any part of the drive train long-term.

But yes, the shudder can be a very real and serious thing.

I too now have a Range and my car has a far more solid feel.
It cost me about 1.5mpg overall but I do mostly highway driving.
I tried removing it for a couple of days and could quite easily easily feel all the dithering in and out of lockup and gears and found it extremely annoying.
So I put it back in where it remains.

I changed the fluid myself recently even though I did not have the TC shudder (yet).
I want to take no chances.
It really isn't difficult to do by the way and I was able to change out around 8 full quarts easily.
So although not as good as an actual flush, that wasn't bad either.

FWIW.......

Doesn't that mix the new Mobil 1 synthetic with the old GM non-synthetic?
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:03 AM   #11
Gunkk
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Yes some NVH during transitions into and out of V4 mode with the AFM are inevitable. To minimize this NVH during AFM engagement/disengagement, GM designed and implemented the continuous slip in the clutches of the torque converter. This slip minimizes the torque transients while still allowing power transmission, maximizing the fuel economy gains of the AFM system while minimizing the NVH effects pointed out by HCI2000SS above.

To allow the clutches to continuously slip, a new trans fluid had to be made with special friction modifiers. Those friction modifiers degrade in the presence of moisture. Once degraded, the fluid can cause a stick-slip condition inside the torque converter clutches, causing the shudder problem we all know. If the bad fluid is replaced with the upgraded "2019 fluid", the problem goes away and I have yet to see a single report that it returns. But if left unattended, the shudder will eventually cause hot spots to form and permanent damage results requiring torque converter replacement.

I have yet to see a single issue of AFM-caused torque converter failure that was NOT directly related to the bad fluid.

See also additional info on this in the "ASK AL" section here, including the original TSB (which IIRC has been revised):
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527133
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:36 AM   #12
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I have a 19 SS with 6300 miles, I feel it during the transition.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:42 AM   #13
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My V6 is perfectly fine with the shift to v4 mode.

though, I also have a tune that increases the transmission line pressure over stock so maybe that helps. Though, there seems to be significantly less chatter about problems with any kind of shudder during transition with even the stock engine.

sounds to me like you guys with the v8 should have gotten a v6
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:44 AM   #14
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Thanks for the replies! To sum it up, it sounds like disabling the AFM could only help extend the life of the torque converter correct? I understand there is really no way to comparitevly measure this, but it does sound like it produces somewhat excessive wear on the torque converter at some level
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