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Old 06-11-2022, 12:16 PM   #1
cjperformance

 
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Converter Clutch Lockup at WOT

Since I had the stall converter, I've been running the TCC unlocked at WOT.

I did some reading and what I found said allowing TCC lockup at WOT in 3rd and up yielded good results.

So I changed the table in the screenshot, but it appears that it isn't locking at WOT. I'll post a log screenshot in a follow up post. My log is on a diff computer.

I modified the Normal, Pat A, Pat B, etc... to have the same settings.

I included the part throttle stuff too in case something is amiss there. The part throttle table is pretty much stock.

I noticed that the WOT table has much lower mph thresholds than the part throttle for it's 100%, but again, these are mostly stock. The exception is I maxed 1st and 2nd apply at WOT on the WOT table.
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Old 06-11-2022, 12:24 PM   #2
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Here's the log screenshot. The "TCC Slip" value appears to be the diff between engine rpm and trans input rpm, and so indicates the TCC is not locked until I come off WOT at the end.

The TCC does operate and lock as expected normally under part throttle.

Note tps is showing WOT, but TCC slip shows TCC is not locked.

I tried this from a stop as well as at highway speeds, where I knew the TCC was already locked. When I go WOT from highway speeds, it unlocks.

Ignore the white "trans slip", that is something else. The blue TCC slip is what I'm referring to.
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Old 06-12-2022, 05:49 PM   #3
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Well, read a bunch online, and seems like this functionality tends to be a bit flaky by nature. Consensus for the most part, for drag racing and street WOT... converter is best unlocked. Its only really a benefit for road courses or wherever there would be extended and repeated WOT pulls.

So ill prob just revert back to what i had before.
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10.84@131 w/4.13" pulley
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Old 06-14-2022, 09:25 AM   #4
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Is that TC one that can be locked a WOT? I know some aren't.
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Old 06-14-2022, 12:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
Is that TC one that can be locked a WOT? I know some aren't.
I can ask Circle D. My impression is that it could be. It has a multi-disk TCC clutch and from what I've gathered should hold up to several hundred more HP than I have.

If it weren't 9,000,000 degrees today I'd do some logging with some addl params to determine if/when lockup is being commanded.

It's not a huge deal for me really. I'll prob leave it unlocked at WOT, just wanted to experiment a bit.
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10.84@131 w/4.13" pulley
??.??@??? w/3.7" pulley (installed & tuning)
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Old 06-14-2022, 01:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperformance View Post
I can ask Circle D. My impression is that it could be. It has a multi-disk TCC clutch and from what I've gathered should hold up to several hundred more HP than I have.

If it weren't 9,000,000 degrees today I'd do some logging with some addl params to determine if/when lockup is being commanded.

It's not a huge deal for me really. I'll prob leave it unlocked at WOT, just wanted to experiment a bit.
If it's a multi-disc, I would assume it would be, but I've only run a single-disk, and that was on my bolt-on '02.

Are you commanding more line pressure? I can't remember if I'm capturing that PID, but I've been playing with some of that stuff and trying to see what changes happen. I'm not sure it's much different for an A8, but I'm still a little new, and constantly trying to learn. I like how the trans is stock, though, so I'm just trying to see about adding a little more clamping for the clutches because of a bit more power, so I'm not really apples-to-apples with you.
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Old 06-14-2022, 01:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
If it's a multi-disc, I would assume it would be, but I've only run a single-disk, and that was on my bolt-on '02.

Are you commanding more line pressure? I can't remember if I'm capturing that PID, but I've been playing with some of that stuff and trying to see what changes happen. I'm not sure it's much different for an A8, but I'm still a little new, and constantly trying to learn. I like how the trans is stock, though, so I'm just trying to see about adding a little more clamping for the clutches because of a bit more power, so I'm not really apples-to-apples with you.
Yes, pressures have been bumped up a bit. Same here as far as learning. I may (or may not) be slower than shop tuned, but the learning is the fun part for me. Honestly, i'd be bored as hell if didn't have buttons and knobs to tweak.
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10.84@131 w/4.13" pulley
??.??@??? w/3.7" pulley (installed & tuning)
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Old 06-15-2022, 10:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperformance View Post
Yes, pressures have been bumped up a bit. Same here as far as learning. I may (or may not) be slower than shop tuned, but the learning is the fun part for me. Honestly, i'd be bored as hell if didn't have buttons and knobs to tweak.
BINGO! If I could be more help, I'd offer it.
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Old 06-16-2022, 09:02 PM   #9
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Here's mine locked. You most likely need to crank up the pressure in multiple tables...well, at least mine are anyways.
TCC pressure/apply ramp, max pressure. regulator offset. shift pressures/max pressure, baseline pressures tcc on and tcc off. upshift pattern X,Y & Z.
This was at DA 6200+
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Old 06-17-2022, 09:03 AM   #10
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All converters for the A8/A10 stuff should be lockable. The car will trap higher mph locked. I would look at the VTT tables...those play a huge roll in how the trans shifts.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:03 PM   #11
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Mine locks 5th gear
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Old 07-13-2022, 11:31 PM   #12
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I tried all kinds of things to get mine to lock earlier and ramp faster. Unfortunately this is a common issue and HP Tuners unfortunately doesn't have the functionality we need with the correct table definitions available to properly control this transmission.

Mine ignores the command to lock right when it gets into second and doesn't start locking until the very end of second and it ramps pretty slow to where the ramp takes a couple thousand rpm's before it starts to couple, so its basically slipping through second, but about halfway through 3rd it finally locks.

I have never understood the argument of not locking the converter. With a stock converter its one thing as they slip less so the difference is probably negligible. Anytime the torque converter is unlocked you are wasting energy and diverting some of the horsepower that could go to your rear wheels to the torque converter slipping where it escapes as heat in your transmission fluid. All a torque converter is doing when it is slipping is acting like a lower continuous gear of about a 2:1 ratio that is proportional to the slip RPM so as its slipping your engine is revving up faster than your tires are revving up so you are trading a little bit of speed for more torque at the wheels.

This is helpful for the launch in first gear, but with our 8 and 10 speed transmissions we only need the torque convertor in first gear. If we still had 4L60s and powerglides it would be completely different and we would need to torque converter to provide that extra artificial gear ratio and help get the engine at a higher RPM where it has better volumetric efficiency.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:13 AM   #13
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Ok, so i consulted a professional tuner, someone well known and respected. Got a tune from him that should have all the trans configuration correct.

Even with that tune, I'm still having issues with getting full lock on the TCC at WOT. We were able to get it to partially lock at WOT with the "standard configuration" but it still slips around 200 rpm over the course of a pull. Peak TCC line pressure is 113, and i can clearly see the difference in slip between the unlocked-at-WOT tune and the locked-at-WOT tune as far as the pressure ramp. Ramps down quickly... It clearly is starting to lock, but then never does. Ill post a couple screenshots when i get to my computer.

Emailed circle d and they said likely not a physical prob with the converter since it locks fine at cruise and part throttle. Some other converters apparently had some machining issues, but that prevented lock under any conditions. So mine should not be one of the affected.

Also found some info on hptuners about certain OS versions being problematic and whatnot. Mine was not amongst the ones listed.

Only other thing i can think of is i replaced some (about 6 qts) of the trans fluid during the swap with some expensive fluid that circle d recommended. That could have changed some of the characteristics of the friction. Maybe try more line pressure? Faster ramp?

I know my tuner is looking in to the issue, but its been a few days. Thought id reach out here again in case there are ideas. Whats a safe value to use for tcc line pressure. I feel like the ramp is correct. Most of the tunes i look at are 113 to 114 psi. Ive seen as high as 117psi.

I think 200 rpm slip is too much. Grampa_ss has a very similar set up to mine and his appears fully locked at 113 psi.
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Forgestar F14 Drag 17x10 NT555R2 305/45/17 Rear
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10.84@131 w/4.13" pulley
??.??@??? w/3.7" pulley (installed & tuning)
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Old 08-14-2022, 02:59 PM   #14
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My settings: shift pressures/general/general Map pressure = 3,447 kpa
shift pressures/general/Base line pressure/TCC on - starts a 1,724 thru 3,609 for all rpms
shift pressures/general/Base line pressure/TCC off - starts 1,379 thru 2,694 for all rpms
shift pressures/upshift/patttern X,Y & Z 1st thru 6th - bump last 2 columns to 600

Torque Converter/General/TCC pressure/max pressure = 1,724 kpa
regulator gain 0.360
regulator offset 80.00 psi

I've been going over my logs and noticed something. If you don't command the converter to release...it won't (I think). I believe its locked by default?? Not positive, I'm just going by the logs.

In the Torque Converter/Apply/Release/Full Throttle: We had the release settings set to stock. We had the apply settings for 1-3 at 318, 4-7 were stock.
All my pulls were from a roll at 45mph. Converter stayed locked the whole time. My thinking is that since we never met the release parameters, the converter never unlocked.

I was trying some other apply/release settings and now my converter is slipping 1-3 and locking in 4th.
these settings are: release 1st, 2nd and 3rd set to 317
apply 1st, 2nd and 3rd set to 318.
so, 1-3 will stay released as all mph is under 317. and 1-3 will not lock as the mph is not over 318.

now my logs show the converter slipping until 4th...then it locks.
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