[travislambert]

I track my ZL1 every chance I get, so I've been kicking around the idea of changing the suspension to be more track-focused (road course, not dragstrip).

I've considered the DSSV kit several times, but it's tough to sink that kind of money into something without knowing what the difference will be. At some point during the summer I hope the Hoosier R7s will be readily available in the stock ZL1 sizes. I'm thinking those should provide a noticable improvement.

Obviously, there are many related/similar threads, but I haven't found much information from folks who've successfully improved the handling of their ZL1s. I've combed through the suspension part # megathread a few times. (Thanks Ryephile for all of the effort put into this thread!) I know there are lots of parts available but slapping on parts and crossing my fingers isn't my style.

PittRace is where I run (almost exclusively). There's a nice set of esses that I think reducing the understeer would help me get through a little faster. There are also a couple off-camber turns that I feel I could pick up some speed on if the car would settle more quickly.

Below is a video from the first full-track day this year. I was a little rusty, and I know I have a lot to improve on as a driver. I signup for every educational driving event I can. Also, this event had strict passing zones, and the point-bys weren't always given at a time was allowed to pass. That's why I may seem slow to pass on a few occasions.

[Ryephile]

You're welcome, I'm glad it's helpful.


To put it simply, the more track-focused you want the car to be, the less bushing rubber and more spherical bearing [aka pillow ball] you want every pivot points to be. Bushings are compliant and on a track car you want the utmost precision and repeatability.

This means all the BMR spherical bearing stuff and Moreno camber plates. The rub with that, however, is the factory rubber bushings are used as supplemental spring rate. Swapping out all the OEM links for BMR links will actually lower your dynamic wheel rate and make the car roll, dive, and squat more than stock, which is exactly the opposite you want. You make this up with stiffer main coils (read: Ground Control coilover/weight-jack kit), and if you want to keep the MRC, that basically means you'll have to get the dynamic wheel rate within a reasonable zone the dampers are capable of handling, which won't be that tough especially if you do some rough measurements with the stock FE4 suspension.


Otherwise, you're ditching the MRC and going either DSSV, or custom MCS or ANZE/Penske. Ironically, the DSSV's would likely be the least expensive, however they're also tuned for the FEA half-rubber setup. It's a known quantity, still reasonably streetable, and you know for sure the setup will work the the Supercar 3R's. Going MCS or Penske opens the door to your wildest dreams, but you'll have to nail down what tires you want to run to build the suspension tuning around them.


Now, the big EASY button is to do a full FEA swap: DSSV, anti-roll bars, front ride links, rear knuckles, rear subframe aluminum pucks, and Supercar 3R tires. They'll all work together because they're designed as such. What's not often mentioned however, is the stiffer dynamic wheel rate now means the car only works best with Supercar 3R-levels of grip. The car won't have as much grip with the street tires, because the spring rates are too stiff for them. If you're OK with the car not being as good on the street, then this is for you.



PittRace looks fantastic, I really need to get out there soon.

[travislambert]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You're welcome, I'm glad it's helpful.


To put it simply, the more track-focused you want the car to be, the less bushing rubber and more spherical bearing [aka pillow ball] you want every pivot points to be. Bushings are compliant and on a track car you want the utmost precision and repeatability.

This means all the BMR spherical bearing stuff and Moreno camber plates. The rub with that, however, is the factory rubber bushings are used as supplemental spring rate. Swapping out all the OEM links for BMR links will actually lower your dynamic wheel rate and make the car roll, dive, and squat more than stock, which is exactly the opposite you want. You make this up with stiffer main coils (read: Ground Control coilover/weight-jack kit), and if you want to keep the MRC, that basically means you'll have to get the dynamic wheel rate within a reasonable zone the dampers are capable of handling, which won't be that tough especially if you do some rough measurements with the stock FE4 suspension.


Otherwise, you're ditching the MRC and going either DSSV, or custom MCS or ANZE/Penske. Ironically, the DSSV's would likely be the least expensive, however they're also tuned for the FEA half-rubber setup. It's a known quantity, still reasonably streetable, and you know for sure the setup will work the the Supercar 3R's. Going MCS or Penske opens the door to your wildest dreams, but you'll have to nail down what tires you want to run to build the suspension tuning around them.


Now, the big EASY button is to do a full FEA swap: DSSV, anti-roll bars, front ride links, rear knuckles, rear subframe aluminum pucks, and Supercar 3R tires. They'll all work together because they're designed as such. What's not often mentioned however, is the stiffer dynamic wheel rate now means the car only works best with Supercar 3R-levels of grip. The car won't have as much grip with the street tires, because the spring rates are too stiff for them. If you're OK with the car not being as good on the street, then this is for you.



PittRace looks fantastic, I really need to get out there soon.

Thanks Ryephile! What you're saying makes perfect sense. The full FEA swap seems like a good option for sure. If you plan to come out to PittRace, let me know and I'll do my best to be there.

I find it strange that we haven't heard much about the '19 ZL1s (or ZL1 1LE). That makes me wonder if something new is around the corner. I'll probably wait until at least some announcement is made before I do anything.

In the meantime, if anyone has swapped their ZL1 to the FEA suspension, please post and let me know how it went.

[travislambert]

Has anyone swapped the magnetic dampers for the DSSVs yet?

I want to do this swap, but I'd like to know for sure the difference is worthwhile.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Has anyone swapped the magnetic dampers for the DSSVs yet?

I want to do this swap, but I'd like to know for sure the difference is worthwhile.

There will be a very low take rate for this swap I think. After parts and install, you are probably talking about $8K OTD.

At that point, it would probably have been worth it to just get the ZL1 1LE from the beginning.

I guess it makes more sense for the SS 1LE guys over the ZL1 guys to do. But still a pretty steep price for shocks/springs and then needing to cancel out the MRC sensors.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You're welcome, I'm glad it's helpful.


To put it simply, the more track-focused you want the car to be, the less bushing rubber and more spherical bearing [aka pillow ball] you want every pivot points to be. Bushings are compliant and on a track car you want the utmost precision and repeatability.

This means all the BMR spherical bearing stuff and Moreno camber plates. The rub with that, however, is the factory rubber bushings are used as supplemental spring rate. Swapping out all the OEM links for BMR links will actually lower your dynamic wheel rate and make the car roll, dive, and squat more than stock, which is exactly the opposite you want. You make this up with stiffer main coils (read: Ground Control coilover/weight-jack kit), and if you want to keep the MRC, that basically means you'll have to get the dynamic wheel rate within a reasonable zone the dampers are capable of handling, which won't be that tough especially if you do some rough measurements with the stock FE4 suspension.


Otherwise, you're ditching the MRC and going either DSSV, or custom MCS or ANZE/Penske. Ironically, the DSSV's would likely be the least expensive, however they're also tuned for the FEA half-rubber setup. It's a known quantity, still reasonably streetable, and you know for sure the setup will work the the Supercar 3R's. Going MCS or Penske opens the door to your wildest dreams, but you'll have to nail down what tires you want to run to build the suspension tuning around them.


Now, the big EASY button is to do a full FEA swap: DSSV, anti-roll bars, front ride links, rear knuckles, rear subframe aluminum pucks, and Supercar 3R tires. They'll all work together because they're designed as such. What's not often mentioned however, is the stiffer dynamic wheel rate now means the car only works best with Supercar 3R-levels of grip. The car won't have as much grip with the street tires, because the spring rates are too stiff for them. If you're OK with the car not being as good on the street, then this is for you.



PittRace looks fantastic, I really need to get out there soon.

That all makes sense to me.

This is why I am only starting out with the rear cradle solid bushing kit from the ZL1 1LE. My only real complaint about the SS 1LE is the rear end moving around too much side to side and too much squat when accelerating.

I figure GM is offering the solid rear cradle bushings as a stand alone option, so it must work and not alter too much elsewhere with dynamic shock/spring, etc.

Granted, I only use the car on the street in spirited driving and mountain road driving, so I don't need to go to the extreme. I just want the rear-end to stay stable and not move around side to side doing transition maneuvers or canyon carving.

[travislambert]

The main problem I'm looking to solve is this:
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=537231

I think I'm asking too much of the tires with the ZL1 suspension. I need a stiffer suspension and more camber to make the tires last.

I tried to buy a ZL1 1LE earlier this year and when it came in it looked like it was stored in sea water for a month prior to delivery. I was pissed at the time so I said screw it I'll just keep the ZL1. At this point I'd take a pretty big loss on my car to trade. Let's face it, most of what makes the 1LE what it is, is the tires.

I have to wonder if the aero is always a net benefit. For PittRace, I'm skeptical. I figure some R7s with the DSSVs on a regular ZL1 will be hard to beat.

I'm going to sleep on it, but tomorrow I might just order the DSSVs.

[tomster]

look in to this a DSC controller https://www.dscsport.com/ Tires and brakes. Max your front camber out. should be able to get -2.5 -3 set the rear to -1.5 (more if the car is loose) You can run 305 on the front and it makes a huge difference. Some tires may require a small spacer if your camber is maxed.

1:39.39



Same A10 with DSC controller
1:37.9



My ZL1 1LE
1:36.9 w/passenger



All Drivers listed here are very good! All cars were on stock brakes and tires.

Below is my car at Pit on slicks

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by tomster

look in to this a DSC controller https://www.dscsport.com/ Tires and brakes. Max your front camber out. should be able to get -2.5 set the rear to -1.5 (more is the car is loose) You can run 305 on the front and it makes a huge difference. Some tires may require a small spacer if your camber is maxed.

1:39.39



Same A10 with DSC controller
1:37.9



My ZL1 1LE
1:36.9 w/passenger



All Drivers listed here are very good! All cars were on stock brakes and tires.

Below is my car at Pit on slicks

I did look into the DSC controller, but the reviews have been mixed. From I have read, it softens things up initially and then stiffens.

They are just playing with when and where the system reacts. To me it wouldn't be worth it unless it actually firmed things up and offered quicker/faster reacting rebound control to settle the car even faster, like a coilover would.

I am looking improved damping and performance , not just shuffling around when and where the system reacts. The stock MRC is pretty good, but could react even quicker to re-settle the car.

[tomster]

I just saw your other post about fast wear on the slicks.

First: Pitt is very hard on the driver front (rotate side to side helps)

Second: go with a wider tire on that rim. It will give you more center contact area

Third: I would not add more camber than 3 degree's at pitt, I bet the inside of your Passenger tire was very close to cords also.

40-42 psi hot is perfect for the weight of our cars on R7s. You need to reduce push to fix your edge wear... Wider front tires is a start. Also consider less rear camber. Run your front toe and rear toe at 0.

I hope this helps. Don't go spending 8k on suspension trust me what you have is great! Work on getting the handling balanced first. then look in too a dsc controller.

https://www.dscsport.com/2017/08/11/...-game-changer/

[travislambert]

Originally Posted by tomster

look in to this a DSC controller https://www.dscsport.com/ Tires and brakes. Max your front camber out. should be able to get -2.5 -3 set the rear to -1.5 (more if the car is loose) You can run 305 on the front and it makes a huge difference. Some tires may require a small spacer if your camber is maxed.

1:39.39

Same A10 with DSC controller
1:37.9

My ZL1 1LE
1:36.9 w/passenger

All Drivers listed here are very good! All cars were on stock brakes and tires.

Hey tomster,

I've looked at the controllers, but I honestly would rather have a car that's more analog so to speak. I believe Luke, the guy who did the comparison videos, took the controller out of the car and was running without it.

My best time at PittRace isn't too far from yours. My best is a 1:53 on R7s. I think later this month during the Chin event I'll be able to shave a second or two.

If I get the DSSVs, I'll be looking to run wider wheels and tires next season. For now I'm sticking with the 285s in the front.

[travislambert]

Originally Posted by tomster

First: Pitt is very hard on the driver front (rotate side to side helps)

No kidding. The problem is I'd need to bring multiple sets of tires to the track or bring a tire machine and rotate on the rims.

I can basically kill a set of front tires in a single track day. I've been rotating side to side like you suggested, and that does help. The last event I brought jacks and rotated mid event.

Originally Posted by tomster

Second: go with a wider tire on that rim. It will give you more center contact area

Never considered that, but maybe that'd help. My original plan was to get different wheels altogether. Maybe 19s to open up my tire options.

Originally Posted by tomster

Third: I would not add more camber than 3 degree's at pitt, I bet the inside of your Passenger tire was very close to cords also.

I'll respectfully disagree here. I believe more camber would be helpful. The insides of both front tires were in good shape at -2.9 with the outsides corded. I really need to start keeping track of temps, and see what I can learn from that.

[RUQWIKR]

Originally Posted by travislambert

I really need to start keeping track of temps, and see what I can learn from that.

I know it is not outside tread temp, but, your PDR data has tire (air) temps along with pressures.

[travislambert]

I appreciate all of the feedback. I don't want anyone to feel as if their comments were ignored, but I went ahead and ordered the DSSV kit and ZL1 1LE rear anti-sway bar (DSSV kit includes front anti-sway bar).

Unfortunately, I'm not a suspension expert so I figured that mixing and matching my own cocktail of suspension components probably wouldn't work well. And, I couldn't ignore the fact that GM offers a track-focused suspension kit that we know works.

Sure I could have just bought a ZL1 1LE, but I like the idea of having something a little more unique. Also, if it turns out I don't like the DSSVs, I can just put the MRC dampers back on.

Anyway, if nothing else, this should be a fun experiment. We'll finally have some real world numbers on MRC vs DSSV.

I have a two-day event at PittRace in a few weeks. Tomster, you should plan to attend if you want to hold on to that #1 spot over the winter.
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512725