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Old 09-11-2019, 11:26 PM   #3431
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Ford has claimed sub 11 second 1/4 mile. It's more than just a guess that the GT500 will beat the ZL1 in a straight line.
Ok first off dude, don't try to act smart. You know good and well that my comment was a direct reply back to newmoon for saying that we don't know if the ZLE will beat the GT500. Or were you unable to get my point from my reply to his comment? Was I supposed to spell that out for you.

Again, Ford puts out a $74K car with 760 HP that took 6 years to develop and it can beat a ZL1 that costs $10K less, has 110 less HP, and has been unchanged for 3-4 years and that is impressive? Acknowledge that. No more running around the statement Idaho...
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
And you're acting, again, as I have pointed out previously, that performance around a track is all that matters. It's not. Performance-wise, it is at most 50% of what matters (straight line performance being the other half). To most people acceleration is more important than a Ring or VIR time. Whether the base GT500 beats the ZL1 and CFTP G500 beats a ZLE around a track remains to be seen. But that is not the end-all be-all. You have your predictions, and nothing wrong with that, but acting as if acceleration does not matter is blind to the overall performance of the cars. As I've stated previously, Billy Johnson said in an interview Ford Performance took a lot of performance testing data to make sure the GT500 was faster than its competitors. We'll see.
Anyone on the planet can build a car that goes fast in a straight line dude. Dodge did it for $65K and it was called a "Hellcat". It takes a lot more to build a car that is fast in a straight line, fast around a track, fully optioned, comes in at under 4K pounds, and costs under $65K. At this point only one manufacturer on the planet has accomplished that feat and it is GM. They did it with the ZL1 and now with the C8 Vette. Can you deny that?

And I couldn't care less what Billy Johnson said. The only one that MIGHT be faster is the CF version and it costs $24 THOUSAND dollars more. That is hardly something to brag about dude. And I'm betting that the ZLE beats it if not destroys it. So again, can you brag about a car that costs $24 thousand dollars more and is only better at one thing?
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Also, as to why someone would buy a GT500 over a less expensive ZL1 - There's other factors, like acceleration, styling, exclusivity, brand loyalty, the way a car makes them feel, interior design, ergonomics, etc. Also, high horsepower costs money. You can't expect a 760 hp car to cost the same as a 650 hp car, regardless of on track performance. I know, the R has less hp but costs more than a ZL1...the FPC engine is expensive and hand built and CF wheels aren't cheap.

The GT350 sells because people like it. The R sells for the same reason. They are both extremely well balanced and sorted out cars, esp the R. Buyers don't care that a ZL1 could go a bit faster around a track than the R (The ZL1 and the R are very close around a track as proven when Pobst drove both H2H for MT). The R is a different driving experience with the high revving FPC V8. To each his own with regards to the two cars.
You say this as if I care. If someone wants to spend more money on a car that is slower in every way and has engine issues then good for them. If they love the way the engine sounds and love the styling and whatever THAT much that they'll buy it then they are a true Mustang fan who will buy baked dog shit if it was in the shape of the Ford emblem. Fine by me. But for the same money or less I'll have a better car.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:33 PM   #3432
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Chevy has a 750hp+ 100k+ car that'll whoop the gt500 in everything, the 2019 corvette zr1... and they had the balls to actually put a manual in it a long with the auto.

Yea the Corvette is a tier above and the camaro is the mustangs true rival, but this is a 100k mustang in the cfp version. It put itself in the next price bracket up.

No one should be surprised if the car with an extra 110 hp that costs more is going to be faster, but it better be faster everywhere not just a straight line.
Exactly what I'm saying that Idaho, newmoon, and every other fanboy keeps trying to ignore. Not once has either of them acknowledged that the GT500 not only costs an exorbitant amount more money but also has 110 more HP and has been in development for 6 years. When the ZL1 beat the GT350R sure it had 124 more HP. But the GT350R according to every Ford fanatic had a much better suspension. On top of that the ZL1 was cheaper than the R at MSRP to MSRP. The ZL1 also beat the R in everything without so much as a question. And the R was only 1 year older than the ZL1. So those are vast differences yet the ZL1 beat the R in everything. The Base GT500 is not going to be able to make even half those comments against the ZLE. It will win in one area only and that is a straight line. So what I don't get is what these guys have to talk shit about when it is clear that the GT500 is an inferior car that just costs more money.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:20 AM   #3433
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2021 Corvette Grand Sport. There won’t be a need for a Camaro answer.
So the Camaro is officially done?
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:34 AM   #3434
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You DON'T know for a fact that the GT500 will beat anything in a straight line because you have not seen it perform or ran on any track besides a video of some dude with a stop watch. You are guessing. And your guess is no better than mine.

The $64K ZL1 is going to beat the $74K Base GT500. The $70K ZLE is going to destroy the $74K Base GT500 AND it is going to beat the $94K CF GT500. THAT is your answer.

I'll ask you. What does Ford have that costs under $75K that can beat the ZLE? Oh wait that is not fair. Sorry. Let me change that. What does Ford have that costs under $80K that can beat the ZLE? Wait, that still isn't fair. My bad. WHat does Ford have that costs less than $85K that can beat the ZLE? Dammit, I did it again. I'm cheating. Sorry again. I'll be more fair this time. Promise. So, what does Ford have that costs under $90K that can beat a ZLE? Oh crap. Let me get this right. I'll try one more time. What does Ford have that costs under $94K that can beat a ZLE?? Around a track?

I answered your question so answer mine.
You just cant stop talking about the ZLE that nobody wants because it rides like a brick, hell there are 10k discounts on it to move them off the lots. What about the ZL1 you know the car people can actually live with while not on a track. I said it before if the 500 has to ride like a tank, literally violently beating up the driver on the street to beat the ZLE track times I hope they don't offer it.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:42 AM   #3435
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2021 Corvette Grand Sport. There won’t be a need for a Camaro answer.
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
So the Camaro is officially done?
Not at all. The Shelby GT500 is Ford’s answer to Corvette. The C8 line of Corvettes is and will be the response to GT500, especially once you move beyond the Stingray. C8 Grand Sport will be the track beast that lines up fender to fender with GT500 CFTP and probably at lower price. Z06 will be overkill. ZR1 will spike the ball.

Camaro has left its answer to Mustang GT on the streets since 2016 and save for the GT*, the answer has held up nicely. FWIW, I see more GT350 than PP1 on the street, so there are not a lot of GT* hangin’ around. I meet see 1 PP1 per week. And I live spitting distance from Ford World HQ where a lot of Mustangs are company cars or employee discount cars.

Corvette and Shelby Mustangs have a rivalry dating back to the late ‘60s when Ford ended the Cobra and the GT350 and GT500 stepped into the void. There are books written about the on track rivalry.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/1967...sting-ray-427/
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:13 AM   #3436
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Not at all. The Shelby GT500 is Ford’s answer to Corvette. The C8 line of Corvettes is and will be the response to GT500, especially once you move beyond the Stingray. C8 Grand Sport will be the track beast that lines up fender to fender with GT500 CFTP and probably at lower price. Z06 will be overkill. ZR1 will spike the ball.

Camaro has left its answer to Mustang GT on the streets since 2016 and save for the GT*, the answer has held up nicely. FWIW, I see more GT350 than PP1 on the street, so there are not a lot of GT* hangin’ around. I meet see 1 PP1 per week. And I live spitting distance from Ford World HQ where a lot of Mustangs are company cars or employee discount cars.

Corvette and Shelby Mustangs have a rivalry dating back to the late ‘60s when Ford ended the Cobra and the GT350 and GT500 stepped into the void. There are books written about the on track rivalry.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/1967...sting-ray-427/
So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:24 AM   #3437
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Ford has claimed sub 11 second 1/4 mile. It's more than just a guess that the GT500 will beat the ZL1 in a straight line.

And you're acting, again, as I have pointed out previously, that performance around a track is all that matters. It's not. Performance-wise, it is at most 50% of what matters (straight line performance being the other half). To most people acceleration is more important than a Ring or VIR time. Whether the base GT500 beats the ZL1 and CFTP G500 beats a ZLE around a track remains to be seen. But that is not the end-all be-all. You have your predictions, and nothing wrong with that, but acting as if acceleration does not matter is blind to the overall performance of the cars. As I've stated previously, Billy Johnson said in an interview Ford Performance took a lot of performance testing data to make sure the GT500 was faster than its competitors. We'll see.

Also, as to why someone would buy a GT500 over a less expensive ZL1 - There's other factors, like acceleration, styling, exclusivity, brand loyalty, the way a car makes them feel, interior design, ergonomics, etc. Also, high horsepower costs money. You can't expect a 760 hp car to cost the same as a 650 hp car, regardless of on track performance. I know, the R has less hp but costs more than a ZL1...the FPC engine is expensive and hand built and CF wheels aren't cheap.

The GT350 sells because people like it. The R sells for the same reason. They are both extremely well balanced and sorted out cars, esp the R. Buyers don't care that a ZL1 could go a bit faster around a track than the R (The ZL1 and the R are very close around a track as proven when Pobst drove both H2H for MT). The R is a different driving experience with the high revving FPC V8. To each his own with regards to the two cars.
I think that the point you’re missing, and has been pointed out numerous times, is that world class driving dynamics with 12.0 straight line acceleration is valued more than a sloppy chassis that is capable* of 0.1 sec advantage in a straight line.

We are ok with our Camaros. I’m so pleased
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:04 AM   #3438
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You just cant stop talking about the ZLE that nobody wants because it rides like a brick, hell there are 10k discounts on it to move them off the lots.
And you just can't stop talking about the GT500 that you can't afford even if it had a $10K discount.
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I said it before if the 500 has to ride like a tank, literally violently beating up the driver on the street to beat the ZLE track times I hope they don't offer it.
It shouldn't matter how it rides to you because you are not getting one anyway. GM did not make the ZLE so that sensitive people like yourself could enjoy a nice lazy Sunday drive. It was made to be an extreme track car. And that it is. It was not made for people like yourself. And frankly you're right to steer clear of it because you obviously can't handle it. Sorry for you.

So you basically want to compare the CF GT500 to the standard ZL1 I take it. because you want to count out the ZLE and the C8. So ok. Let's compare the $94,000 CF GT500 to the standard $64,000 ZL1.

The GT500 might beat the ZL1 in a straight line but that depends on if it can get the power to the ground effectively. If it can't then it will be just like the Hellcat...loads of HP with a high 11 sec quarter mile. That is until someone shady *cough Evans cough* gets their hands on it. EVen then if it does manage a win it will be by maybe about 4 tenths. So congrats. $94K gets you a 4 tenth advantage over a $64K car. You must be proud.

Around a track that fat pig ain't gonna do a damn thing unless it is the track in the video that was posted which has long straights and basically no turns. That way the GT500 if it can handle even marginally decent will just be able to get thru some corners and then try to overwhelm the ZL1 on the straights. But I bet the GT500 is going to be playing catch up the whole time and will still lose.

So my prediction is that the standard $64K ZL1 will beat the $94K GT500 around a track but it might lose in the quarter mile. The fact that it is still doubtful whether the CF GT500 at $30K more and with 110 more HP will actually beat the Almighty King ZL1 says a lot.
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:11 AM   #3439
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So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.
Like I said, the GT500 will be on life support by the time the GS shows up. And it'll be in a casket by the time the Z06 arrives. And I bet the Z06 is cheaper than the CF GT500. The Redeye is gonna throat punch the GT500 in the quarter mile. The ZL1 is going to finish it off around a track. The ZLE is just gonna kick it while it is down. The C8 Z51 is then gonna swing around and put it out of it's misery finally. And then the GS is gonna cremate the thing. The Z06 will be there for the funeral. And the ZR1 will be there to exorcise any remaining spirits left behind.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:08 AM   #3440
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Gt500

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Yes, of course. But the ZR1 starts ~$30k above the CFTP GT500. They are not in the same price bracket. The CFTP GT500 is about the price of a Z06 with a few options.
This is true, but over 100k is over 100k no matter how you spin it, especially if adm's are taken into account. A z06 will wreck a GT 500 on a track but straight line should be pretty comparable. Z06 has been out since 2015 though and is down 110 hp.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:15 AM   #3441
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So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.
Here's the way we played it in Competitor Intel at GM:
  • Mustang EcoBoost -->Camaro LS / LT
  • Mustang GT --> Camaro SS
  • Shelby GT350 -->SS 1LE, ZL1
  • Shelby GT350R --> ZL1 / ZLE
  • Shelby GT500 --> Stingray Z51, Grand Sport
  • Above Grand Sport (Z06, ZR1) Ford had nothing to be concerned about.

Whenever a new GT500 has been introduced it has been compared to the Corvette of the day. Mid - late 70s to early '80s not withstanding, when you were hard-pressed to get a Corvette over 200 hp or a Shelby Mustang of any variety.

When I was doing competitor intelligence at GM, the Camaro team cared about the GT350 / 350R. That is the ZL1/ZLE competitor. If ZL1/ZLE beat GT500, gravy.

The Corvette team considered the GT500 as a "secondary competitor". Basically, that would be a competitor that aspires to compete with you, but whom you do not target as a direct competitor. So, Porsche 911 all variants (there's like 72 of 'em, right?), Ferrari 488, McLaren 570s and 720, Lamborghini (multiple models), Audi R8 were considered direct competitors and we provided reams of info to the team on those products. GT500, Ford GT, Nissan GTR, Mercedes AMG GT, Acura NSX, Toyota Supra, a bunch of other stuff that I can't recall top of mind were considered secondary competitors. Basically, we told the team if they were doing anything interesting that they needed to know about, but as long as they "stayed in their lane" it was sort of a "yeah, we know they're out there" sort of vibe. Hit the primary targets and you don't have to worry about the secondary targets unless they find a way to punch above their weight class.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:24 AM   #3442
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I just want the car to start getting reviewed.

And even in the end, there's not many good ways to spin the results for Ford.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:29 AM   #3443
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C7 gt350

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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.
I remember a few, at least one CD article, putting the c7 z51 against the gt350 with a track pack. To be fair they did label it an unlikely comparison and the c7 stomped it as it should have but price and powerwise they were comparable. The camaro and mustang are obviously the more common rivals but when a Shelby has the price tag of a Corvette ofcourse they're going to be compared to each other as well. Especially in 2015 and 2016 where there was no ss 1le or zl1 yet.

The gt500 is in a place price and power wise where it will probably be compared and crossshopped against zl1/zle's and corvettes.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:33 AM   #3444
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And lol at people crying about zl1 1le drivability. Quite a few people dd them, old men with bad backs shouldn't have even considered one.
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