[Mister Will]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Once again, list the bolt ons. List the time to do these modifications. Please add in the assumed cost of a loss of factory warranty.



You are making assumptions and arguing facts that are not in evidence. Since no mention was made of handling, you are discounting the costs of that very handling. You are also making statements that are not supported by evidence.

To be clear then, you are depreciating a ZL1 and not including any of the costs to upgrade the SS to anything approaching a ZL1s capabilities. This is a complete strawman argument.

Once again, you said that it is cheaper to upgrade a SS to be a ZL1. Called on it, you are crawfishing.



Seriously??

I can state that an SS on PS4S tires, even slightly wider with a slightly lower aspect ratio (nearly same OD as OEM) do not transform the SS into a ZL1. The PS4S will heat cycle out much more quickly than the QY SC3s. So much so that they become greasy and actually a bit dangerous to be on. I also have found that the GYSC3s provide better off the line traction, if they are at the proper temperatures.

Either you can support your argument or you cannot. So far you have provided scant facts.

In order to answer your question to the level in which you demand, he would have to put in more time than its worth.

For instance with the same level of detail you're demanding, prove him wrong. Not so easy is it?

[RageWorx]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Once again, list the bolt ons. List the time to do these modifications. Please add in the assumed cost of a loss of factory warranty.



You are making assumptions and arguing facts that are not in evidence. Since no mention was made of handling, you are discounting the costs of that very handling. You are also making statements that are not supported by evidence.

To be clear then, you are depreciating a ZL1 and not including any of the costs to upgrade the SS to anything approaching a ZL1s capabilities. This is a complete strawman argument.

Once again, you said that it is cheaper to upgrade a SS to be a ZL1. Called on it, you are crawfishing.



Seriously??

I can state that an SS on PS4S tires, even slightly wider with a slightly lower aspect ratio (nearly same OD as OEM) do not transform the SS into a ZL1. The PS4S will heat cycle out much more quickly than the QY SC3s. So much so that they become greasy and actually a bit dangerous to be on. I also have found that the GYSC3s provide better off the line traction, if they are at the proper temperatures.

Either you can support your argument or you cannot. So far you have provided scant facts.

We are all very happy you are a proud owner of a ZL1 and believe it just can't be matched by any commoner lower trim that dares to mod and have aspirations of getting anywhere near a ZL1 ... but who are you really trying to convince with your argument here ... yourself ?

No one owes you line item proof of anything so stop acting like without that their Opinions aren't valid you don't get to create the rules for debate sorry .... lets remember here this is Opinion and not some set in stone fact that everyone must accept because you demanded something that no one owes you and if they don't provide then YOU WIN

There is a such thing as Intended Use of the Vehicle ... If you are not going to use some of those NASA grade features you payed extra for and mentioned in regards to the ZL1 then why bother with the extra cost in the first place ... And possibly you do use them all and rely on them as your life blood but other owners could care less and don't want some of the extras so why pay for them and save money for specific modifications that they want for their intended use ... to me that is efficient rather than paying more for some things you may not want or need for the cars intended purpose.

In the end there is No Wrong way just what works best for the individual.

Don't get me wrong I like the ZL1s and thought about grabbing one when they came out ... but after thinking about how I would use and how I use my boosted 16 SS ... decided not to bother and just keep having fun and modding my SS (which I definitely don't have ZL1 money into btw sorry I know you needs receipts but I don't care lol) .

Plus I like to leave the extra $$$$ to buy other cars I mean who wants just one Fun Toy when you can have many.

-Jon

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Let's be clear. I am asking you to detail the line item costs to upgrade a Camaro SS to a ZL1. This is to have all of the functionality, performance, features, safety equipment, cooling, chassis tuning, etc. Straight line performance is only one piece of this puzzle. You work up the costs, line by line item.

Once you have those costs, we can work on depreciation schedules. Are we considering straight line depreciation or accrued depreciation models?

You and us SS owners both know no 100% transformation is possible at any reasonable cost, so this is just a hollow taunt.

My car pretty much has all that has value for me out of a ZL1, except small software features that GM in their pettiness left out and made near impossible to retrofit (HUD shift lights, configurable launch control etc.).

I think something similar is what OP has in mind, he cares for certain ZL1 aspects and not for others, and his question is where the best balance or tradeoff lies in our opinion.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by oldman

I disagree here, it is relatively cheap to bolt on and E85 a LT1, FBO I did beat a Hellcat thru the gears, he was closing on me in when I shut down at 110 MPH. Probably near even in a 1/4 mile both of us on street tires not DRs (Hellcat high trap for sure). I felt FBO on the M6 (still could use NLS) was a near ideal street car, light, fun, bout as much power that can bee hooked to the ground. There are cheap was to do this too, for instance a Pray ported intake and LT5 TB (stock off the shelf) is really near a MSD and 103 MM, for 1/3 the price.

I'm sure with DR / slicks and a prep track the ZL1 can then apply the torque to the ground, I'd take the ZL1 auto, the OP does not mention he wants to do this. I will point out there are FBO M6 in the low 11s and I believe Pray / SixGunSled's buddy has a high 10 M6 with drag pack. So it would be about even with the fastest Zl1 stock

The depreciation on a ZL1 could easily pay for FBO on the SS ( including the further depreciation of his currently owned SS). I was and am frankly shocked at the ZL1's nominal depreciation. But please show me the data of a Zl1 auto 2017 cost vs selling price over 3 years, toss in the 8% sales tax too. I roughly estimate that my SS loses 2.5K a year or 10 K since I owned out the door price - what I could sell it for now put back to stock condition. So say 3K on the high side of or 12K for 4 years, just for discussion sake.
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/ca...tyle=401720981

That is 21K of depreciation (not including taxes, insurance etc), his currently owned SS would be 12K (see above), 3K for FBO, he is coming out 9K ahead over 5 years just on depreciation.

You have good insight and a lot knowledge oldman but you are always pushing some odd combos lol.. like 1 7/8s headers over 2 inchers... why a stock 95mm tb and ported IM when he has the money to spend and a ported 95mm tb and ported msd's are proven faster set ups. A high ram if you really want to party.

Pray had an m6 bolt on car in the high 10s, then they went fbo with a high ram and otr cai and it went low 10s, probably a hero run but still. It's now a heads cam car and has gone 9.8, and ran repeated 9s.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by s346k

for starters, none of the cars will compare to the ls7. i’d guess a simple bolt on LT1 would walk away from the LS3 cars, only to get decimated by a stock c6z

subjective question. we don’t know your goals, feelings or anything else. all i got from that blurb about cars was you want more power. there are plenty of ways to get it. it doesn’t take much for a na LT1 to make a stockish ZL1 look silly.

Idk man, pray has some fbo high ram cars that would give a stock c6 z a run for sure.

He posted a video not long ago of a heads cam c6 z vs a heads cam lt1 where the camaro won, granted it was an auto.

With the right tuner a fbo lt1 can be really fast, and a heads cam car can be a monster.

Also a stock 6th gen will walk a bolt on ls3.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Let's be clear. I am asking you to detail the line item costs to upgrade a Camaro SS to a ZL1. This is to have all of the functionality, performance, features, safety equipment, cooling, chassis tuning, etc. Straight line performance is only one piece of this puzzle. You work up the costs, line by line item.

Once you have those costs, we can work on depreciation schedules. Are we considering straight line depreciation or accrued depreciation models?

You can get an ss 1le for under 40k.. you can make it faster than a zl1 for well under 50k total.. it'll have a lot of the chassis and suspension tuning already included. A standard ss will obviously not be able to match the elsd and HUD if it didn't already have it but it'll be a pretty capable street car.

Now if you're talking about an lt4 conversion that may be a different story, but you can stay NA and make big power.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

You have good insight and a lot knowledge oldman but you are always pushing some odd combos lol.. like 1 7/8s headers over 2 inchers... why a stock 95mm tb and ported IM when he has the money to spend and a ported 95mm tb and ported msd's are proven faster set ups. A high ram if you really want to party.

Pray had an m6 bolt on car in the high 10s, then they went fbo with a high ram and otr cai and it went low 10s, probably a hero run but still. It's now a heads cam car and has gone 9.8, and ran repeated 9s.

He seemed concern about money and one combo is 1/2 the price. 2" headers are fine, the power is not worth the fitment issues from my perspective. But 2" will give more power. I personally believe 1 and 78 offers more part throttle tip in and overall response.

[Fraxum]

I went from a bolt on SS to an A10 Zl1 and as great as that car is I got bored with street unusable power and having an automatic. I was sorry I sold my '16 2SS. Since my friend flipped my 5th gen 1LE on a race track I will never use my own car there again.

Now I am in an M6 LT1 and loving it. Low 12s is fast enough to be fun.

[oldman]

FBO M6 = fun. there is faster, there is better handling, there is better autoX / road race performance. Hard to beat FBO M6 for just toss-ability and relatively low cost fun.

I lost that with FI, one day I may pull the supercharger and for grins see what HP I can make with all ported stock stuff+ low lift cam.

[Evansa22]

I went from a '16 1ss to an '18 zle. Put a lot of thought into the same dilemma. For me I liked the look of the zl1 more and because I was a 1ss, was missing a lot of the interior features. In the end, test drove one and it was what I was looking for. Personally it made sense for me and decided to go that route before I put any money into mods on the 1ss. Once the warranty is up I'll mod this for around another 100 whp and call it good. Handling wise I dont think there's much more to add to the car so none of that will be touched. Just offering my personal experience and it made sense for me, but I wanted more than just the power, also wanted the elsd, as well as the handling this car brings to the table. Not to say the ss couldn't match it especially being lighter but I wanted something pretty much ready to go out of the box

[oldman]

amen, it is personal choice based on $$$$ and wants. Clearly the SS currently owned is cheaper, clearly a ZL1 / ZLE is "better" in most ways.

[Fraxum]

To me the smartest move if you really want a ZL1 is to buy used.

I had my $70K list A10 ZL1 for a little over 1 year and I think 8K miles. Other than a number of 1/4 miles runs it was as new. I got $51K for it from CarMax. This was $3K more than I could get for it in a trade with a Chevy dealer. I decided to take the Carmax offer and sit on the cash for a while to decide. Then the LT1 came out as the lightest V8 Camaro and the cheapest. Loaded up I paid almost exactly what I paid for my 2011 LS3 Camaro. Amazing deal.

My goal is to see if I can get into the 11s with just tires and a Rotofab in my M6 LT1. Given my loaded M6 2SS (sunroof too) was 3,685 pounds with 1/4 tank the LT1 will be under 3,600 lbs. It feels lighter driving it but that might just be the difference coming from the ZL1.

[GuywithL86]

Bolt on SS will be more fun to drive than the zl1 on the street

I’d only go zl1 if I intended to to track it.

IMO the perfect street camaro for weekend fun is a manual ss non 1le with cam/fbo

You dont want the handling limits to be so high that you have to drive like a maniac to get your blood flowing.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

Bolt on SS will be more fun to drive than the zl1 on the street

I’d only go zl1 if I intended to to track it.

IMO the perfect street camaro for weekend fun is a manual ss non 1le with cam/fbo

You dont want the handling limits to be so high that you have to drive like a maniac to get your blood flowing.

Nailed it. But wanting to keep the car for more than a year or two and drive it quite a bit I would skip the cam. Although when I hear one it sounds so good. To me more so than hearing the whine. And I do love the stock torque curve. So if I do the bolton thing this time I will go with a ported stock IM instead of a MSD.