[6sigma]

This is just bad all around and needs to stop. There was a news story on local TV last night where a small local manufacturer is furloughing staff and reducing hours because they supply materials to some other supplier and the whole supply chain is shutting down. This is hurting a lot more than GM.

I've heard and seen way too many stories about Union corruption and graft to feel much sympathy. The Union org seems to be taking advantage of the workers more than their complaints about GM. What happened to those FCA workers who got caught on camera smoking pot on lunch? (nothing) Why is the average GM worker so upset about temp workers who aren't converted quickly (they're not, but the union org is because they want dues from workers!). All of this going on while the UAW leadership is raided by the FBI for corruption and outright theft from the workers they are said to protect. They bought Ferraris and lots of luxury goods from the FCA training center slush fund that the workers paid for. Organized crime is still involved. It's all BS. The Union org (not the workers) has overstepped here, again, and they are hurting many more people both union and non-union in the process for the organizations benefit (not the workers).

Too much BS like a room full of $60+ Union workers but no one can change a light bulb because they have to call in a certified and trained union electrician. And that electrician guy is on call and gets paid a full day's wages for coming in to change a bulb. Yeah, that's efficient.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by 6sigma

Too much BS like a room full of $60+ Union workers but no one can change a light bulb because they have to call in a certified and trained union electrician. And that electrician guy is on call and gets paid a full day's wages for coming in to change a bulb. Yeah, that's efficient.

You know the union workers don't make $60+/hr right? That figure is the health and retirement benefits being thrown in to make you more sympathetic to managements side......


It's like what my company and others in the same field liked to do to help sound more appealing in recruitment. New person can expect to earn $80,000 first year! Which is of course deceiving because that included health care, 401K contribution, hotels, etc. The real salary is roughly $37,000 a year.

[6sigma]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

You know the union workers don't make $60+/hr right? That figure is the health and retirement benefits being thrown in to make you more sympathetic to managements side......


It's like what my company and others in the same field liked to do to help sound more appealing in recruitment. New person can expect to earn $80,000 first year! Which is of course deceiving because that included health care, 401K contribution, hotels, etc. The real salary is roughly $37,000 a year.

Right, true, but those health care costs and other benefits are a big part of what they are striking about here. It isn't free, and the union could argue they want higher wages instead of health care benefits if they wanted (well, actually they want both).

The problem with the light bulb example isn't the actual hourly labor cost, but rather the huge inefficiencies that are mandated by the union contracts that increase costs dramatically. The workers want to be able to change the bulb and see the craziness of the whole thing, but the union contract won't allow them. And if the company asks them to do it anyway, lookout now you have a contract violation that triggers more craziness like mandatory staffed electrician positions (whether they are needed or not).

I have a close friend who was on the local United Way management board. One of the board seats was held by a Union representative, to act as a voice for the union workers who are contributing to the United Way via payroll deduction. The United Way paid the guy in the Union held seat upwards of $70k/year for the role (stated because the guy was doing this instead of his regular job, even though it wasn't full time), where the other seats got paid little or nothing because it's a charity. One time the United Way got into a very tight budget period, and was not able to meet their goals and budget numbers. All costs were scrutinized. My friend on the board asked a question at one of the public meetings as to if it continued to make sense to pay the $70k+ salary to the Union held seat. There was some debate and it was tabled. After the public meeting, the union guy that held the seat came up to my friend and privately said, you know in other times your house would be burned down tonight. And this was all for a charity!

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by 6sigma

Right, true, but those health care costs and other benefits are a big part of what they are striking about here. It isn't free, and the union could argue they want higher wages instead of health care benefits if they wanted (well, actually they want both).

The problem with the light bulb example isn't the actual hourly labor cost, but rather the huge inefficiencies that are mandated by the union contracts that increase costs dramatically. The workers want to be able to change the bulb and see the craziness of the whole thing, but the union contract won't allow them. And if the company asks them to do it anyway, lookout now you have a contract violation that triggers more craziness like mandatory staffed electrician positions (whether they are needed or not).

I have a close friend who was on the local United Way management board. One of the board seats was held by a Union representative, to act as a voice for the union workers who are contributing to the United Way via payroll deduction. The United Way paid the guy in the Union held seat upwards of $70k/year for the role (stated because the guy was doing this instead of his regular job, even though it wasn't full time), where the other seats got paid little or nothing because it's a charity. One time the United Way got into a very tight budget period, and was not able to meet their goals and budget numbers. All costs were scrutinized. My friend on the board asked a question at one of the public meetings as to if it continued to make sense to pay the $70k+ salary to the Union held seat. There was some debate and it was tabled. After the public meeting, the union guy that held the seat came up to my friend and privately said, you know in other times your house would be burned down tonight. And this was all for a charity!

I know it isn't free. But it's a deceiving tactic to use by others to pass around to get people thinking these people are making $115K a year for simple assembly work, when they are not pulling in anywhere close to that.

There are bad unions just as there is bad management.

A lot of them out there need a reality check instead of acting like mobsters/thugs( that burning down your house comment is scary).

As I stated in an earlier post, the strike is hinged on a lot of things including that temp worker situation. A person working there for 8 years is hardly a temp worker anymore and should be hired in as a perm to gain the benefits others are getting. You also can't expect employees to be happy about not gaining some of their concessions back that they made back in 2008 or so to help keep GM alive while GM right now is raking in profits and upper management is seeing their wages increase.

I still remember back in 2003 I believe the year was when American airlines approached their mechanic union asking for concessions to keep them out of bankruptcy. The union obliged and management got huge bonuses for that. The company is on the brink of bankruptcy and after asking for concessions, management gets bonuses... How do you think the worker group will react to that?

[90503]

The only reason these non-union plants and temporary workers are getting any decent money and are even employed at all is because of the higher paid and unionized workers who are on strike.

Basically, the union workers who strike are benefitting all employees temporary, non=union, and management alike. The union employees are the only ones who can affect the pay-scale, and without them and a contract, all employees are at the mercy of management who would have no reason or obligation to pay any decent wage or benefit to any employee.

[Lafourche1]

https://www1.salary.com/GENERAL-MOTO...-Salaries.html

I'll simply state again that GM made $11 Billion in pre-tax profit.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay..._D_KO18,38.htm

$23,000,000 ($23 million) per year versus $20 per hour average. Seriously folks.

[TJay74]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

You know the union workers don't make $60+/hr right? That figure is the health and retirement benefits being thrown in to make you more sympathetic to managements side......


It's like what my company and others in the same field liked to do to help sound more appealing in recruitment. New person can expect to earn $80,000 first year! Which is of course deceiving because that included health care, 401K contribution, hotels, etc. The real salary is roughly $37,000 a year.

You realize that UAW line workers make close to $30 per hr, they were making over $22 per hr when I worked for GM in 2001. $30 per hr is over $60k per year before OT. They also dont pay anything at all for their insurance plan where most typical people do pay anywhere from $100-$400 per month for their insurance programs thru their employer.

$37k per year is $17.75 per hour, I made over that when I worked for GM as a temp and college student back in 2001.

[TJay74]

I do agree though, a huge turning point in the last 10-20 years is the exec's worrying about making money for the shareholders and Wall Street and not taking care of the stakeholders and employees.

I have been with a public owned utility company for almost 12 years now. When I started it was great, the company cared about us and took excellent care of us. Then the CEO and President retired and the successor came in, he was worried about making the shareholders happy and the ROI and meeting the forecast numbers for Wall Street. Now all the company does is do cost analysis on every position and find ways to cut and reduce workers.

Case in point, our trouble shooters that go out and find out why the power is off and get it back on, they are like Firemen in that they sit around until the fire and then go fix it / put it out. A analyst didnt like that and said we could save money by elimination positions and requiring them to do other work instead.

Now when we get an outage instead of responding to the outage in 10-15 minutes it is more like 45-60 minutes. Our response time is slower and it takes longer to restore the power. We now operate with the amount of employees we had when we only serviced 500k customers even though we service closed to 900k customers now.

Not exactly the smartest thing to do in our eyes.

[LT4Greg]

Hell, I would love to make $30.00 an hour in my job!! I work for a major corporation and don’t get half of that and I pay for my health insurance, 401K deductions and everything else and work 40 hours a week! The union people should be damn glad they are making what they are instead of complaining all the time and striking! If they don’t like their job or what they are earning then move on to another job or profession.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by TJay74

You realize that UAW line workers make close to $30 per hr, they were making over $22 per hr when I worked for GM in 2001. $30 per hr is over $60k per year before OT. They also dont pay anything at all for their insurance plan where most typical people do pay anywhere from $100-$400 per month for their insurance programs thru their employer.

$37k per year is $17.75 per hour, I made over that when I worked for GM as a temp and college student back in 2001.

$30/hr is $57K a year based on a 40 hour work week. I am not going to argue they are not being paid a decent wage. But as I stated above, it's deceitful to quote a $60+/hr rate that includes benefits( which is NOT compensation) making it seem they are being paid six figures.

My $37K a year example applies to my company where they try to advertise in their recruiting that a new guy can make $80,000 a year first year, but that includes benefits, hotels, etc. Which is a deceitful recruitment tactic. That stuff is not compensation and a new guy can expect to make $37,000 his first year.

[KirkH]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

Hell, I would love to make $30.00 an hour in my job!! I work for a major corporation and don’t get half of that and I pay for my health insurance, 401K deductions and everything else and work 40 hours a week! The union people should be damn glad they are making what they are instead of complaining all the time and striking! If they don’t like their job or what they are earning then move on to another job or profession.

You could do the same. If you would love to make $30/hr, why don't you move to another job or profession? The union is just a group of people who formed a union to get what you say you would love to have.

I believe that the lack of universal health care keeps a lot of people in jobs that they don't like and don't allow them to reach their potential.

For example, after I retired and now have my insurance paid for by my pension, I have started 3 small businesses! I make more money than I ever did before with a job I had to keep so that I would have medical insurance for my kids.

LACK of health insurance KILLS the entrepeneurial spirit!

[Lafourche1]

Originally Posted by TJay74

You realize that UAW line workers make close to $30 per hr, they were making over $22 per hr when I worked for GM in 2001. $30 per hr is over $60k per year before OT. They also dont pay anything at all for their insurance plan where most typical people do pay anywhere from $100-$400 per month for their insurance programs thru their employer.

$37k per year is $17.75 per hour, I made over that when I worked for GM as a temp and college student back in 2001.

Actually, as posted above, the average for GM is $20 per hour.

I don't get the anger at people wanting to have a better life. These are working folks. They go to work every day. They are NOT making $23,000,000 dollars a year. However, the anger is directed at people who are making, on average, $40,000 per year. Seriously folks, these are hard working people that are doing a job. There is indeed something broken when the working person is the object of the derision and scorn and not one single word is directed at the $23,000,000 per year compensation of the CEO.

I want to ask, if anyone has read any history books? Unions are the backbone of the middle class. Strong unions expand the middle class. Strong unions strengthen the middle class. The larger the union membership, the larger the middle class. Gracious, read something. I recommend Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century for a starter.[/rant off].

[KirkH]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Actually, as posted above, the average for GM is $20 per hour.

I don't get the anger at people wanting to have a better life. These are working folks. They go to work every day. They are NOT making $23,000,000 dollars a year. However, the anger is directed at people who are making, on average, $40,000 per year. Seriously folks, these are hard working people that are doing a job. There is indeed something broken when the working person is the object of the derision and scorn and not one single word is directed at the $23,000,000 per year compensation of the CEO.

I want to ask, if anyone has read any history books? Unions are the backbone of the middle class. Strong unions expand the middle class. Strong unions strengthen the middle class. The larger the union membership, the larger the middle class. Gracious, read something [/rant off].

Good rant.

Everyone thinks that one day, THEY are going to be the person making $23M/yr and they don't want burdens on THEIR $23M.

Of course, that is not going to happen. Stats show that the best way to get really rich in this world, is to get it from Daddy.

As Mark Twain said MANY years ago: "There are no poor Americans, just temporarily dispossessed millionaires."

[LT4Greg]

KirkH, I’m not complaining about what I’m making now and never have. I’m glad you started businesses after you retired. Seems as if you are very fortunate to have made enough money to do so!