[CW3SF]

Originally Posted by Camaro1973

Your making less power because of your elevation. The stock system can only handle e50 with bolt ons and no pulley with a low side. People don’t sometimes understand this.

I understand the effects of altitude and e content. I took his comment on stock components in the engine to mean internals. If he meant fuel pump and injectors then of course those can’t support full e85.

I plan to have my car dyno’d at sea level in the coming months, possibly at JRE and we will see how HPFP and injectors work out at sea level. I’ll make more boost and obviously run less ethanol content. I think it’ll pick up some more horsepower but not sure how much. It isn’t much of a detriment to step back from e85 to e60-70.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by SSallday

I was just at Janetty Racing in June. I got the 125rwhp package which includes the flex fuel kit. For the dyno, the car had E70 but that was probably just for testing purposes. He said anything up to E60 would be ok for cruising. I’m guessing the stock components in the engine can’t handle full E. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

This isn't true, the only problem is fueling, as stated above. E85 at WOT on a forced induction car requires a lot more fuel volume at sea level than 93, which you can't supply with a simple LT4 HPFP/LPFP + JMS combo. BTW this also means that you're fine with E85 if you just cruise, it's WOT and the associated drastic fuel requirement that poses the problem.

You would need to increase your fueling via higher flow fuel pumps, port injection or meth (this last one is strongly advised against), but these shenanigans are typically only done by people who skirt or venture into four digit hp territory (Camaro1973 for example), because after E60-E65 the gains taper off very sharply.

As an example, my JRE built and tuned car can go up to E65 with the mods in my sig, and I'm fine with that, injector pulse width using E60 is ~5.4-5.5ms, so there is some safety reserve, and I don't mind having to mix E with 93. For a "normal" street driven Camaro, the only true advantage of E85 over E60-E65 is that you don't need to think and calculate, you can simply dump E85 in the tank. I for one won't spend even more $$$$$ for this tiny bit of comfort and a minimal hp gain.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

I was afraid of mixing at first but found out it’s not bad at all. I have a banks gauge and actually have it as the largest output on the display. People just look at you funny after you fill up with E and then throw the 93 pump in for like a gallon or two. Haha

The only thing you’ll have to remember is to watch the temperature. I can run E75 at 85F but it’s on the edge, still playing around with E content at lower temps but looks like I’m good at E70 around low 70s (5.5ms). Or just run a safe E content all the time. Seems like E60 is where it’s at for most of the gains anyways.

I was the same way back when I first went FI....then I quickly learned it's no big deal. I would Just blend it to E60 and call it a day. you are not gaining much power above that blend anyway.

[Camaro1973]

Originally Posted by CW3SF

I understand the effects of altitude and e content. I took his comment on stock components in the engine to mean internals. If he meant fuel pump and injectors then of course those can’t support full e85.

I plan to have my car dyno’d at sea level in the coming months, possibly at JRE and we will see how HPFP and injectors work out at sea level. I’ll make more boost and obviously run less ethanol content. I think it’ll pick up some more horsepower but not sure how much. It isn’t much of a detriment to step back from e85 to e60-70.

Honestly on your build or even most you should be able to run max timing on E60. I’m not sure what your tune looks like but I bet not much if any difference at all from 60% onwards.

[laynlo15]

This is easy in my area, our stations only have E65 to E70 and that's the most I've seen when logging on my HP Tuners. So that works out really good for me. We'll see once I get my new blower on with Mike's toohighpsi port injection.

[SSallday]

Thank you guys for chiming in. It makes a lot more sense now

[Gunkk]

IMO a track car should stick to 93. 99% of the time money spent on a driver mod will beat money spent on a car mod.

But if you must go "E" then know that the stock ZL1 fuel system can handle E60 up to about 650 wheel and still have a healthy lambda. Any more E or HP than this and you're risking a visit from uncle Rodney.

[Grumpy1]

Originally Posted by MartinLe

I purchase a 55 gallon barrel of e98 from Tyree Oil. I'm sure you have a local oil/gas distributor near you.

That may be something to look in to, any idea if sold in smaller quantities and and shelf life?

[Gunkk]

Shelf life will be more or less unlimited in the single-digit-humidity of OP's Arizona. But a barrel won't last very long anyway supporting a healthy track habit.

[VaporPressure]

For the guys running E60 at HPDEs, isn't the volume of fuel used annoying? On 93, I am getting through almost half a tank on a 20 min session, and pretty easily half a tank on 30 min sessions.
So if I were to go E60, wouldn't that mean I'm filling up/blending at the gas station before every single session? I get that I could bring some of my own gas cans but even then, seems that they would probably need to be filled with E85 before the weekend starts, because it seems like plenty of gas stations nearest to the tracks I've been don't necessarily sell E85. Then I'd still need to drive to the station between every session to blend 93. Am I missing any obvious solutions or is that just the price to pay for more hp?

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by VaporPressure

For the guys running E60 at HPDEs, isn't the volume of fuel used annoying? On 93, I am getting through almost half a tank on a 20 min session, and pretty easily half a tank on 30 min sessions.
So if I were to go E60, wouldn't that mean I'm filling up/blending at the gas station before every single session? I get that I could bring some of my own gas cans but even then, seems that they would probably need to be filled with E85 before the weekend starts, because it seems like plenty of gas stations nearest to the tracks I've been don't necessarily sell E85. Then I'd still need to drive to the station between every session to blend 93. Am I missing any obvious solutions or is that just the price to pay for more hp?

You will have to bring some jugs of E85 with you. The more you blend it down the less you will consume. I would just mix it 50/50 which should put you just under E50. Even E40 provides good gains, so as long as you can run somewhere between E40-60 it's worth it. The closer you are to E60 the better it smells and the cleaner your exhaust tips will be. E40 starts to smell more like pump gas.

[NG329]

I run E40 and the car loves it.

I've seen guys drive themselves crazy over this but honestly it's very simple.

Pump 93 is 10% Ethanol near me and I have access to E70. For street driving I start with a full tank of 93 and whenever I get to half a tank I just fill up with 9 or so gallons of E70. Gets me in the ballpark every time. If I get it wrong, as long as I'm in the range of E35 - E45 the tune will still run great.

When I go to the track, I carry 20 Gallons of E70 with me and in the morning I fill up with Pump 93.

After the first 2-3 morning sessions I'm down to just a little below half a tank. I fill up with two jugs of E70 and I let rip during the 3rd and 4th sessions. Then when I get down to half a tank again, I fill up halfway at the pump and I pour in the 3rd jug of E70. For sessions 5 and 6. Very rarely will I use the 4th jug of E70 unless we go open track or I'm flying out there and buring more fuel than usual.

If your MAF is set properly you only need to give attention to the Power Enrichment in HP Tuners. That should get you around Lambda 0.78 - 0.82 and with 93 I like to be around 0.82 - 0.85. Maybe one of the super technical guys will check me on these numbers but so far it has worked for me and nothing has blown up yet.

Install a Wideband ASAP to take the guesswork out of things. I just put mine back into my '21 over the weekend and I wish I've done it sooner.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by NG329

I run E40 and the car loves it.

I've seen guys drive themselves crazy over this but honestly it's very simple.

Pump 93 is 10% Ethanol near me and I have access to E70. For street driving I start with a full tank of 93 and whenever I get to half a tank I just fill up with 9 or so gallons of E70. Gets me in the ballpark every time. If I get it wrong, as long as I'm in the range of E35 - E45 the tune will still run great.

When I go to the track, I carry 20 Gallons of E70 with me and in the morning I fill up with Pump 93.

After the first 2-3 morning sessions I'm down to just a little below half a tank. I fill up with two jugs of E70 and I let rip during the 3rd and 4th sessions. Then when I get down to half a tank again, I fill up halfway at the pump and I pour in the 3rd jug of E70. For sessions 5 and 6. Very rarely will I use the 4th jug of E70 unless we go open track or I'm flying out there and buring more fuel than usual.

If your MAF is set properly you only need to give attention to the Power Enrichment in HP Tuners. That should get you around Lambda 0.78 - 0.82 and with 93 I like to be around 0.82 - 0.85. Maybe one of the super technical guys will check me on these numbers but so far it has worked for me and nothing has blown up yet.

Install a Wideband ASAP to take the guesswork out of things. I just put mine back into my '21 over the weekend and I wish I've done it sooner.

.78 is too rich imo. Pump gas should be richer than Ethanol. I target .81-.82 on pump and .83-.84 on E with LT4 stuff. If the pump gas tune is dialed then you don't need to change much for E far as AFR. The ECU will adjust if the tune is setup correctly.

[USAFS197]

Originally Posted by MartinLe

I purchase a 55 gallon barrel of e98 from Tyree Oil. I'm sure you have a local oil/gas distributor near you.

Thanks for the tip. I reached out to them to see if that's something they can do for me. But, I just have no way to transport the fuel so, that'll actually be the hard part.