[joe944]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Fine if you want to call that a straw man argument, try this one then.

The reason I prefer to compare MSRP to MSRP is there are just to many other variables. Some people don't include tax title license all that jazz in their OTD price. Some people do, some people don't have pay taxes on the car till they go to register it other people it gets rolled into the loan if you are financing it or it's due when you write a big fat check, what interest rate did you get, what is your sales tax rate compared to mine?

Example if me and my brother in law went and bought two of the exact same cars, from the exact same salesmen at the exact same dealership and got the exact same rebates and got them for the exact same price his OTD price is gonna be higher than mine because of the county he lives in and his tax rate is higher than mine.

I agree that comparing OTD prices can throw off a comparison. I prefer looking at just the sale price of the vehicle before you add all of those costs on, which are going to differ vastly due to local laws.

You're never going to get a 100% fair comparison between two vehicle purchases, but I still think that looking at the price paid means more than what the MSRP is listed at.

I'm no fanboy one way or the other. I originally wanted a GT350 and ended up in a ZL1 because I could not get a GT350 for the same price.

MSRP is just not a very useful tool for cars like the Shelby's that consistently sell for WAY more, especially where I live, other than knowing exactly how much you got bent over for.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by joe944

When I compare vehicles that I want to purchase I look at how much it is going to cost me to purchase them, which includes a lot of variables like the specific dealership and whatever other offers may be on the table at the time.

Those are part of the equation and cannot be simply ignored for theoretical reasons.

Very valid

[LostM]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Y'all got anymore of them 73K GT500s?

The hypocrisy of pricing is crazy here. Fanbois being fanbois of a car 4 years late to the game. As expected...

sure , Move to the US and call around

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by LostM

the track is uphill actually, but thats a good attempt at excuses

Lol ... with that camera angle in the video I saw it looked downhill. After seeing other videos, it's flat track up to the 1/4 mile then becomes uphill. So it doesn't affect acceleration. No excuses here.

if you can afford 65k, you can afford 73k. if not, you probably cant afford 65k either, realistically.

I am not in a market for a new car. Although for those that are, we all know lot's of people getting in Hellcats and ZL1's are putting aside a good chunk of their income to afford them. So going from 65K loan to a 100K loan can break the bank for a lot of the consumer market for these cars.

You guys keep saying GM did it for less $.. heres the problem, THEY DIDNT. if it cant beat the GT500, then they didnt "do it"

I dont know why you are so mad or unwilling to accept it. newer cars nearly always outperform older ones. Expecting the GT500 to NOT decimiate (kill off) the Camaro was an error on your part.

Yes, we said GM made the same or better handling car for a lot less. I bet you the standard ZL1 will out handle the base GT500. While costing 15K less. The GT500 will win in a straight line which was expected as Ford doesn't restrict the Mustang and is trying to market the car as a really solid drag car.

So where do you think we are wrong? I personally already said I don't care for 1/4 mile times. I value acceleration, and 650HP/650TQ is plenty for me. Ford realized the car community value HP/1/4 mile too much and thus put a giant supercharger twice the size of the Camaro one to get 760HP(likely underrated too) coupled with a DCT and a drag mode meant to get perfect launches at the strip. In doing so, automotive journalists managed to get an 11.1 1/4 time which is impressive. The A10 ZL1 get's like an 11.4. That's not a big difference to me.

And I prefer a manual anyway. And if I was in the market for a new muscle car, I'd go with the manual ZL1 for the fun factor, value, looks and overall balance of the chassis.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by joe944

I agree that comparing OTD prices can throw off a comparison. I prefer looking at just the sale price of the vehicle before you add all of those costs on, which are going to differ vastly due to local laws.

You're never going to get a 100% fair comparison between two vehicle purchases, but I still think that looking at the price paid means more than what the MSRP is listed at.

I'm no fanboy one way or the other. I originally wanted a GT350 and ended up in a ZL1 because I could not get a GT350 for the same price.

MSRP is just not a very useful tool for cars like the Shelby's that consistently sell for WAY more, especially where I live, other than knowing exactly how much you got bent over for.

When comparing for purchase reasons, sales price is all that matters for sure.

When comparing two competing companies and their offerings, objectively, MSRP is the only valid value to use.

It's the same reason we use factory condition 'stock' vehicles as a standard for comparisons.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by LostM

sure , Move to the US and call around

Need links to actual cars for sale K thanks

[LostM]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

Lol ... with that camera angle in the video I saw it looked downhill. After seeing other videos, it's flat track up to the 1/4 mile then becomes uphill. So it doesn't affect acceleration. No excuses here.

I have GPS data and google earth that show the same thing, its uphill for the last coupe hundred feet. Nice try though


I am not in a market for a new car. Although for those that are, we all know lot's of people getting in Hellcats and ZL1's are putting aside a good chunk of their income to afford them. So going from 65K loan to a 100K loan can break the bank for a lot of the consumer market for these cars.
At what point will you comprehend 73 is not 100? if the difference of 65k to 73 breaks your bank, you shouldnt be paying 65 either


Yes, we said GM made the same or better handling car for a lot less. I bet you the standard ZL1 will out handle the base GT500. While costing 15K less. The GT500 will win in a straight line which was expected as Ford doesn't restrict the Mustang and is trying to market the car as a really solid drag car.


but it DIDNT.

So where do you think we are wrong? I personally already said I don't care for 1/4 mile times. I value acceleration, and 650HP/650TQ is plenty for me. Ford realized the car community value HP/1/4 mile too much and thus put a giant supercharger twice the size of the Camaro one to get 760HP(likely underrated too) coupled with a DCT and a drag mode meant to get perfect launches at the strip. In doing so, automotive journalists managed to get an 11.1 1/4 time which is impressive. The A10 ZL1 get's like an 11.4. That's not a big difference to me.

so you agree ultimate performance was the goal, and has been achieved. thanks, finally some logic. Same supercharger as zr1 btw

journalists maybe 11.1,at elevation. normal people got 10s. nice try


And I prefer a manual anyway. And if I was in the market for a new muscle car, I'd go with the manual ZL1 for the fun factor, value, looks and overall balance of the chassis.

cant argue against much of that, its mostly opinion and personal preference coupled with finances

Bold, like the GT500

[ST1LE]

Also, I mean comparably equipped. I do not think the base 500 is comparably equipped to a ZL1 at $73K, so that is not necessarily the right MSRP number to start with.

[joe944]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

When comparing for purchase reasons, sales price is all that matters for sure.

When comparing two competing companies and their offerings, objectively, MSRP is the only valid value to use.

It's the same reason we use factory condition 'stock' vehicles as a standard for comparisons.

Can't argue with that. I was mainly referring to purchase reasons, since at least some of us here actually buy these cars.

[LostM]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Also, I mean comparably equipped. I do not think the base 500 is comparably equipped to a ZL1 at $73K, so that is not necessarily the right MSRP number to start with.

you may be right, but id have to look into ZL1 options. but the base gt500 comes with a lot standard. ill be back

[RagingHawk]

'Nice try' what? I've never been to the track, just based on the video it looks flat to me up to 1/4 mile. If you have data to suggest otherwise you can present it. Although it's not going to make a difference. Everyone agrees the GT500 is faster in a straight line.

You are not going to find any GT500 for 73K OTD. You can get a ZL1 for 65K OTD. Minimum OTD price for a GT500 is 80K. And that is for something that will likely not out handle the base ZL1. You would need to step up to the 95K MSRP track pack GT500 to out handle the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE.

No, I do not consider 1/4 mile to be deciding parameter for performance. Although I do agree with you that Ford, 5 years late, and with lots of tuning to the car, did make it a great performer. But, it cost them more to match the ZL1's performance in overall performance as they are working with an inferior chassis. And it's also going to cost consumers more. Of course there are some consumers that only care about high HP numbers and 1/4 mile. So good for them. Here we are comparing overall performance and value though.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by joe944

Can't argue with that. I was mainly referring to purchase reasons, since at least some of us here actually buy these cars.

Absolutely man! GM has been high on my list for a while because they offer amazing performance cars at a great price. I wish Ford did too, but anything from Ford that performs tends to be pretty expensive relatively speaking. Some are great performing cars, but the price usually has me buying a competitors product, and not because I can't afford it, I just think the OTD price tends to be a bit high for the offerings.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by LostM

you may be right, but id have to look into ZL1 options. but the base gt500 comes with a lot standard. ill be back

I would like to know this.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Fine if you want to call that a straw man argument, try this one then.

The reason I prefer to compare MSRP to MSRP is there are just to many other variables. Some people don't include tax title license all that jazz in their OTD price. Some people do, some people don't have pay taxes on the car till they go to register it other people it gets rolled into the loan if you are financing it or it's due when you write a big fat check, what interest rate did you get, what is your sales tax rate compared to mine?

Example if me and my brother in law went and bought two of the exact same cars, from the exact same salesmen at the exact same dealership and got the exact same rebates and got them for the exact same price his OTD price is gonna be higher than mine because of the county he lives in and his tax rate is higher than mine.

Shaffe, the difference isn't going to be $10K or more tho. Markups significantly alter the price and, therefore, the value of a vehicle. Look at it like this. A $10K difference in a vehicle is the difference between a SS and a ZL1, a Base 1LT Vette and a 2LT Vette with decent options, a GT350 and a GT350R, a Hellcat and a Redeye, a 1LZ Z06 and a 2LZ Z06, etc. When you tack $10K onto the price of a car, you are basically putting that same car at the price of a car in the next trim level. So the value decreases by a large margin. In contrast you are talking about buying a vehicle and paying a required sales tax or the difference in dealership fees, or someone haggling the price down vs you getting that car at MSRP. If I buy a ZL1 at MSRP and someone else buys one but haggles the price down by $10K, the value of my car doesn't decrease. The value of the guy who got the discount might increase but my value stays the same. With a markup tho, the value would decrease. At $74K the GT500 is a great value. I do not think it is a better value than a ZL1 all things considered...or a C8...but it is a great value nonetheless. But the fact remains that you are not going to get one without a markup attached. If my Base GT500 with options comes out to $84K, and the dealership adds $10K to the price, then that moves the price up to CF trim level. So I am buying a Base GT500 for CF GT500 price, at which point the value takes a significant hit.