[shaffe]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Now, for that, even as a multi degree possessing systems and network engineer, I will agree that they bit off way more than they could chew with the amount of new tech they shoved in there and they're.. well, I guess all us tax payers, are paying the price for it.

While I am fan of advanced and modern technology being used as full as it can be, I can also appreciate the issues one runs in to when you push the very bleeding edge of too many things at once and then put all of that in to a package being submitted to the stresses of such an aircraft.

See I think we are on the same page.

I think people like Norm and others that say no to the A10 are just saying in a car like this, you need to keep the driver skill element in as well as this car is not for everyone. Look at the Viper ACR, it has almost no tech in it and its one of the fastest track cars you can buy.

[Thor142]

Formula 1 drivers us paddle shifters. I think we can agree that they are at the apex of driving skill. Does that make them disconnected with their cars? Putting the A10 in manual mode and shutting off all the nannies is pretty "racecar" isn't it?

Just asking....

[Bhobbs]

They aren't using torque converter automatics and they are racing with big money at stake. Neither are true for some guy buying an A10 Camaro.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Thor142

Formula 1 drivers us paddle shifters. I think we can agree that they are at the apex of driving skill. Does that make them disconnected with their cars? Putting the A10 in manual mode and shutting off all the nannies is pretty "racecar" isn't it?

Just asking....

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

They aren't using torque converter automatics and they are racing with big money at stake. Neither are true for some guy buying an A10 Camaro.

This ^ Those are not traditional autos like the A10.

If we were talking about something like Porche or Ferrari use then by all means yes put them in there.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ Those are not traditional autos like the A10.

If we were talking about something like Porche or Ferrari use then by all means yes put them in there.

I'm completely lost.....

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Thor142

I'm completely lost.....

A traditional torque converter driven automatic trans is not going to shift as fast a dual clutch transmission. It's not going to perform like those where the upshifts and downshifts are instantaneous. that is why they use them in F1

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by shaffe

A traditional torque converter driven automatic trans is not going to shift as fast a dual clutch transmission. It's not going to perform like those where the upshifts and downshifts are instantaneous. that is why they use them in F1

No I get that part. We aren't debating TC VS DCT. We were discussing how paddle shifting an auto takes away from the track experience and the driver connection ...or...something. I'm not sure I even know anymore.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Thor142

No I get that part. We aren't debating TC VS DCT. We were discussing how paddle shifting an auto takes away from the track experience and the driver connection ...or...something. I'm not sure I even know anymore.

LOL yeah I think we went down the rabbit hole of just debating lol. I was helping Norm's side of the debate then I kind of got in my own lol.

And I think you got me there. Maybe in my brain it has something to do with knowing that the A10 wouldn't be as good as a DCT.

[Jon A]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I voted no mainly because to allow the A10 into such a limited production car so gives the....

Norm! How ya been? As a fellow old guy (I think, in this crowd anyway) I can completely understand where you're coming from and agree with nearly everything you said. However, I can also see a contrary perspective:

I'm sort of tired of my 20 year old junk and its 6-speed. You know, been there, done that. As fast as it is, I wouldn't mind trying something new....

If this A10 truly works as well as advertised, I could see paddle-shifting my way through a bunch of very closely spaced gears as adding a new facet to the driving experience. It would be different but it may be just as much fun in its own way. The Ferrari guys at the track don't seem to ever complain about the driving experience being lacking.

Having more gears to choose from so you can find the ideal one for every corner on every track would certainly be nice for a change.

With the newer cars rev-matching downshifts with the manual so you don't need to heel and toe anymore--how much skill is involved driving a manual anymore anyway? That's the hardest part--and one of the most satisfying to get right. If they've already taken that away, then what's the point?

But the biggest factor that would go into my selection in the end does come down to performance. If the A10 proves to be durable and stays cool and it consistently lays down laptimes significantly faster than the manual with the same driver that would make choosing the manual pretty tough. When I look at my data and see how much time I spend coasting down the front straight between shifts it makes me want to cry.... That and the closer gear spacing could result in a pretty large performance delta.

I enjoy plinking with my iron-sighted 44 lever very much (even shot a deer with it last year) and greatly admire the skill of people who are even better than me with it...but I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with it in a tactical match against modern scoped rifles. We're certainly not at that point yet but I do think we're headed down that road.

[Raven87]

I definitely get both sides...

For the 'No' camp, it's about being a purist, about the 'experience', and most of all, it's about being engaged with the car. I get that. I love driving a manual car and it is so true, the feeling of being 'engaged' is really a great part of enjoying the entire driving experience. And in competition, part of that challenge is to 'do it yourself' and win - there is some intangible quality to beating that guy at the strip who had an automatic while you are shifting your own gears (although the reason you beat him probably had nothing to do with his transmission choice).

And for some, 'having' to shift your own gears just adds to the badassery level of the car. Autos are for sissies and men who shop at Abercrombe. I mean after all, even Ron Swanson would shift his own gears, right? What 'real man' wouldn't?

And for the 'Yes' camp, it's really mostly about 'Why not?'. Offering the A10 in the Z/28 will not detract in any way from the car nor will it reduce the enjoyment of those who opt to buy the manual, right? But it might in fact bring in buyers who would not (or could not) deal with a manual so where's the harm there? That camp could not care less how shifting gears makes one feel connected - there is sufficient connectivity to be had just driving the car and enjoying it. And when racing, they will point out to us that NO ONE can outshift a computer. They will tell us that GM has said this new 10 speed is FASTER than Porsche's DCT, that even with a TC, it is a superior transmission. And, they might just be right.

That is why I voted YES. It should be offered. It's not like GM would be saying this car is only getting ONE transmission if they do. So, they SHOULD offer it and those of us who like the manual can buy ours and shift to our hearts content. And those of us who see the benefits of an auto in a race environment or even out on the street, can paddle shift away or, just leave it in 'D' and blithely drive into the sunset.

So, yes, it should be offered as long as the manual is still offered too.

[BigGuy81]

Offering an automatic increases sales, which gives GM more money to develop more performance cars. I don't see a problem with it at all.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BigGuy81

Offering an automatic increases sales, which gives GM more money to develop more performance cars. I don't see a problem with it at all.

If you're a dyed-in-the-wool road course kind of enthusiast it's a big problem. A take-away from what Chevy finally got around to offering to us guys whose tracks feature turns (in both directions).

Would you see a problem if future market and regulatory pressures (or unilateral corporate edict, for that matter) replaced the A10 in favor of a CVT? Same deal, really, but I think that one would hit home to a good many of those who are currently in favor of having the Z/28 offer the A10.


Norm

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

If you're a dyed-in-the-wool road course kind of enthusiast it's a big problem. A take-away from what Chevy finally got around to offering to us guys whose tracks feature turns (in both directions).

Would you see a problem if future market and regulatory pressures (or unilateral corporate edict, for that matter) replaced the A10 in favor of a CVT? Same deal, really, but I think that one would hit home to a good many of those who are currently in favor of having the Z/28 offer the A10.


Norm

How would them offering an auto as an option in any way 'take away' from what you could buy and race with a manual?

And future market or regulatory influence affecting options is not remotely the same as offering the A10 in the Z as an option.

These are the same kind of arguments the Corvette Z06 camp saw when discussion of an automatic in the mighty C7Z was tossed out. And just as much without validity. If GM said only one trans would be available and it might be the auto I would stand with you and fight that idea. But if you could choose one or the other? Why fight that?

What possible impact would my buying an auto if I chose to do so have to do with your enjoyment of racing your car on right and left turn tracks with your manual?

Not a damn thing.

[RandyT]

I would love it if they did