[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by crabman

They fail the inspection because all states must comply with either EPA or CARB guidelines neither of which allow for the removal, relocation, or alteration of catalytic converters in any way.

A little history... The reason Cali is able to maintain a separate standard is that CARB was in place before the federal requirements were in place and because those standards are more stringent. Other states petitioned to set their own standards afterwords but the action was stopped by the auto industry and the stage was set for the basic rules we have now. A state may use either the less stringent federal guidelines or comply with CARB but cannot go without or set up separate standards.

States, counties, and cities can enact regulations to check emissions. There is however no federally mandated checks which is why you see the hodgepodge you have out there now. Essentially it is illegal to tamper with emissions sensitive devices everywhere but in some places no one is looking. Doesn't make it any less illegal and no I'm not preaching here, I install headers on almost every car I own.

To the thread in general about M&M... I've pursued one of these against Chrysler. That was quite a few years ago now and some aspects of warranty law are also effected by state law so I'm going to stick with the basics that I think apply everywhere. Keep in mind I am not an attorney.

You cannot have your warranty voided in total except under specific circumstances that don't typically apply to mods. Odo tampering, declared a total loss, etc. You can however have a single case of warranty coverage denied in a case by case fashion or have your powertrain warranty voided. The latter usually happens when power adders were the cause of denial. By changing the power level of your car they say that you changed it into a configuration that they did not build, test, or sell you, and they are under no obligation to warranty that configuration. The general concept is that the manufacture shows a range of power that stock engines will produce and if your numbers based on mods exceed the peak stock power you're potentially in trouble insofar as your warranty. In this case the rest of the warranty will still remain in place on the remainder of the car.

I think you folks also need to understand how it works at the dealership at the time of denial. Lets say you pop your trans and your car gets towed into the dealership. Doesn't matter if it is yours or any other dealership. They cant get that trans and be reimbursed for labor until a regional rep signs off on it. Used to be they traveled everywhere but my understanding is now they often use data taken from the car, high resolution pictures, etc. and may never show up at the dealership at all. Regardless in this example you've got long tubes installed and what happens is this rep says you have changed the power level of the car and using the logic above and he denies your warranty.

Your options at this point are scream and yell, jump up and down, spout M&M, doesn't really matter what you do. That rep doesn't sell cars he works for GM and his job is to guard the gate. Once he refuses to pick it up the dealership isn't going to want to pay for that trans themselves and provide free labor unless a person is a much better customer than I suspect most of us are. This is where you hear the dealership tell you how sorry they are that they cant cover this under warranty and it's not their fault as they really want to but that mean old rep wont let them. You are now on your own and must come out of pocket or stay broken while what may well be a very long process plays out. That process will not be cheap and despite what you hear about getting your fees the M&M act provides for the ability to get fees but does not guarantee them even if you win out. I won but did not get fees.

You read about some people having problems with power adders installed and getting warranty coverage on the drivetrain. The how and why of that I don't know but I've read it enough to believe it does happen. I would however rather use the modding rule so often cited on the corvetteforum, those who want to mod should be capable of and prepared to be their own warranty station.

Again, I'm an unashamed modder so I'm not trying to tell anyone anything other than to be careful when people start saying you are protected by the M&M act. It does exist and allows for a process that may or may not end in court but it isn't fun and winning can feel a lot like losing.

I'm traveling right now and trying to get my car fix while Mrs Crab is in the shower. I'm hopeful you gents will forgive the phone typos.

Good info and I understand what you are saying. Tampering with any Federally mandated emissions equipment is a crime. I guess my real question is Joe Blow at Quick Lube will know the car is supposed to have 2 sets of cats or when he sees the primaries will think all is well. Is there some guide they go by? Not all cars currently use 2 sets of cats right?

[crabman]

No, many use one, the two cat setup is dictated when packaging requirements don't allow a single of adequate size close enough to meet light off.

I'm making an assumption you're asking the all important can I get away with it question? I've only lived in one jurisdiction that did a visual, that was years ago and he opened up a 3 ring binder to a breakout showing the installed emissions equipment before inspecting the car. What is done now I don't know.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by crabman

No, many use one, the two cat setup is dictated when packaging requirements don't allow a single of adequate size close enough to meet light off.

I'm making an assumption you're asking the all important can I get away with it question? I've only lived in one jurisdiction that did a visual, that was years ago and he opened up a 3 ring binder to a breakout showing the installed emissions equipment before inspecting the car. What is done now I don't know.

Ok makes sense then. Think I actually read that somewhere here in another thread.

You assume correctly. It's been awhile since I had a car I actually wanted to remove them on. I don't think the guys around here ever do a visual on a new car. Just plug it into the computer and the safety inspection. I'm ok with putting a set of resonators to "look" like cats, but would rather save that money if I could. Wish it was easier to gut them.