[c4racer]

So to this point - I agree. In fact - I have one story / data point to back it up. I have had my 6th gen for 4.5 years now - so my wife is rather familiar with the car although she has never actually driven it - certainly has ridden in it quite often including a lot of day trips and weekend road trips.

Late last year she decided she wanted to replace her Mazda3 hatchback and was quite enamored with the idea of a 6th gen coupe. She doesn't really need or want the V8, so we were looking at lightly used models with the V6. The 4 seems like a good motor, but it's unclear to me how long those turbos will last - the V6 seemed more tried and true. Anyway - we found one in her favorite color - Garnet Red and went to look at it. She didn't actually drive it - but just sitting in the drivers seat, looking at the poor visibility, looking at the trunk and back seat space and overall ergonomics she decided it just wasn't a good fit for her needs.

We bought a new version of the Mazda3 and she couldn't be happier - the tech, ergonomics, the fit, finish and materials used in the interior are huge leaps and bounds above what is in the Camaro RS. We got the highest trim level with pretty much all the options available, which is what she had in her previous Mazda - that was a 2015, the new one a 2021 model.

And she hasn't looked back - that was just the better car for her. Now - does she need a back seat? Not specifically - nobody rides back there, but she quite often uses it to carry cargo, along with the hatchback area. Much more practical for her - and much more of a normal car visibility too. It was the right choice.

Again - one data point, but I think that represents a lot of the potential buyers in that 60-70% category for the Camaro.
They want a sporty car that looks cool and drives tight, handles well etc. But without too many compromises. And there are choices in the market that deliver that - such as the Mazda3 as one perfect example.

For me - it's either the Camaro or a vette or 911 or M3, which are all drivers focused sports cars with limited utility and many compromises for the performance levels attained by these types of cars. So that's the mindset I go into a purchase decision with - and the SS came out the winner for me. But again that's probably in the 25% range of Camaro buyers which is already a tiny number to begin with.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

that was like a ford commercial from a year or so ago, started out with the Mustang driving aggressively then right into a promo for 0-60 on suvs and trucks



Devils advocate - I would say the reason the 6th gen sales is lacking is because they let to much passion into the project. They listened to the enthusiasts that wanted smaller, lighter, faster and moar powaaaa. They delivered 100% on that promise. Cars like the SSLE, ZL1, ZLE are insane and insane performance values. Problem is only 30-40% of Camaro buyers opt for a V-8. The shortcomings of the car that the 30% can ignore sometimes can not be ignored by the 60-70% that make up the bulk of the sales.

As much as no one around here wants to admit it, these cars need to some appeal to the masses. Mustang and Challenger have that, they have useable trunks, and more useable back seats and everyones favorite better visibility. I am not saying they need to be able to handle home depot runs, but it could have been better than it is without sacrificing performance.

GM IMO focused to much on what the smallest percentage of buyers wanted, and it backfired on them. The Camaro as a performance car is superior to anything in its class. It is truly a world class performance car. Problem is its a bad coupe compared to its rivals and when 60-70% of the people that buy these cars don't buy performance trims...that performance benefit isn't going to be able to sway them

I totally agree with everything you said except the bold. My biggest pet peeve with the Alpha platform (pick a brand) is the trunk opening. I was assigned a CTF vehicle for the ATS launch. THE first Alpha product. After a week of driving it, I was talking to the chief engineer about who knows what and mentioned to him how much I hated the trunk opening. He went into great detail to explain to me that making any change to the body in white structure of that opening would either reduce the torsional rigidity and therefore compromise handling or require additional bracing elsewhere which could fix the handling, but add mass.

Long story short, the trunk opening is a result of meeting the performance and mass targets. Changing it would have required missing one or the other. As you point out in the rest of your post, GM was in “fulfill the passion” mode. The enemy was 3-Series, and no prisoners would be taken. Camaro, of course, inherited the same trunk opening for the same reasons, since now it was baked into the architecture. On the plus side, my weeks with that 2.0T ATS is what made me decide I was gonna buy a 6th Gen Camaro.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I totally agree with everything you said except the bold. My biggest pet peeve with the Alpha platform (pick a brand) is the trunk opening. I was assigned a CTF vehicle for the ATS launch. THE first Alpha product. After a week of driving it, I was talking to the chief engineer about who knows what and mentioned to him how much I hated the trunk opening. He went into great detail to explain to me that making any change to the body in white structure of that opening would either reduce the torsional rigidity and therefore compromise handling or require additional bracing elsewhere which could fix the handling, but add mass.

Long story short, the trunk opening is a result of meeting the performance and mass targets. Changing it would have required missing one or the other. As you point out in the rest of your post, GM was in “fulfill the passion” mode. The enemy was 3-Series, and no prisoners would be taken. Camaro, of course, inherited the same trunk opening for the same reasons, since now it was baked into the architecture. On the plus side, my weeks with that 2.0T ATS is what made me decide I was gonna buy a 6th Gen Camaro.

Now that is interesting. I guess that makes sense, I guess I just thought with how good GM performance has been in the last 15 years they would have been able how to figure out how to get some of that performance back. l

[c4racer]

ya - the trunk size especially in the coupe is reasonable. But that opening size is just terrible

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by c4racer

ya - the trunk size especially in the coupe is reasonable. But that opening size is just terrible

The opening is comically bad, but I also think the space is bad too. Mustang convertible has more trunk room than a Camaro coupe...

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by c4racer

So to this point - I agree. In fact - I have one story / data point to back it up. I have had my 6th gen for 4.5 years now - so my wife is rather familiar with the car although she has never actually driven it - certainly has ridden in it quite often including a lot of day trips and weekend road trips.

Late last year she decided she wanted to replace her Mazda3 hatchback and was quite enamored with the idea of a 6th gen coupe. She doesn't really need or want the V8, so we were looking at lightly used models with the V6. The 4 seems like a good motor, but it's unclear to me how long those turbos will last - the V6 seemed more tried and true. Anyway - we found one in her favorite color - Garnet Red and went to look at it. She didn't actually drive it - but just sitting in the drivers seat, looking at the poor visibility, looking at the trunk and back seat space and overall ergonomics she decided it just wasn't a good fit for her needs.

We bought a new version of the Mazda3 and she couldn't be happier - the tech, ergonomics, the fit, finish and materials used in the interior are huge leaps and bounds above what is in the Camaro RS. We got the highest trim level with pretty much all the options available, which is what she had in her previous Mazda - that was a 2015, the new one a 2021 model.

And she hasn't looked back - that was just the better car for her. Now - does she need a back seat? Not specifically - nobody rides back there, but she quite often uses it to carry cargo, along with the hatchback area. Much more practical for her - and much more of a normal car visibility too. It was the right choice.

Again - one data point, but I think that represents a lot of the potential buyers in that 60-70% category for the Camaro.
They want a sporty car that looks cool and drives tight, handles well etc. But without too many compromises. And there are choices in the market that deliver that - such as the Mazda3 as one perfect example.

For me - it's either the Camaro or a vette or 911 or M3, which are all drivers focused sports cars with limited utility and many compromises for the performance levels attained by these types of cars. So that's the mindset I go into a purchase decision with - and the SS came out the winner for me. But again that's probably in the 25% range of Camaro buyers which is already a tiny number to begin with.

I don't know if anyone really cross-shops between a Mazda3 hatch and a Camaro. Very different cars. I am willing to bet that, if you take her to see a Mustang, she would probably also turn it down and go with a Mazda3 hatchback.

Even with the 2.5T engine, I don't really consider Mazda3 as that sporty. It might be considered sporty in its segment(the not-so-hot hatch), but still. I have driven my friend's Mazda6 with the 2.5T for a daily and it's more like a diesel workhorse(that runs on gasoline) than a sporty, revvy engine like the 3.6 in the Camaro. In fact, Mazda as a whole has been shifting away from sporty to luxury.

Just hopping between my friend's Mazda6 and my own Camaro for the last two days have given me an idea how different they are. One is a more laid back luxury machine while the other one gives much more of a tight fighter jet feel.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Lol the Camaro is so far from this.

Pretty much every OEM reuses the good parts, switches, clusters. But for the most part reusing the Alpha architecture is what makes the Camaro both great and expensive.

But I would be curious as to what “leftovers parts GM did use on the Camaro” you find objectionable.

Agree on making what the customer wants. Clearly being 3rd is proof of that.

My point wasn’t that the leftover parts are necessarily undesirable. My point is GM won’t develop anything for the Camaro beyond what’s off the shelf.

As for what I would have changed, it would be the 1.7 blower on the LT4 and the AFM hardware in the manual LT1 cars. The small blower was chosen to fit under the hood of the C7. The Camaro could have used a bigger blower and made close to the power of its competition. Manual Camaro LT1s could have used a hotter cam to keep pace with the power increases of the Mustang.

They could have developed a higher performance V8 for the Z/28 using the truck 6.6 architecture.

They could have done a number of things to keep pace with the competition.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by c4racer

So to this point - I agree. In fact - I have one story / data point to back it up. I have had my 6th gen for 4.5 years now - so my wife is rather familiar with the car although she has never actually driven it - certainly has ridden in it quite often including a lot of day trips and weekend road trips.

Late last year she decided she wanted to replace her Mazda3 hatchback and was quite enamored with the idea of a 6th gen coupe. She doesn't really need or want the V8, so we were looking at lightly used models with the V6. The 4 seems like a good motor, but it's unclear to me how long those turbos will last - the V6 seemed more tried and true. Anyway - we found one in her favorite color - Garnet Red and went to look at it. She didn't actually drive it - but just sitting in the drivers seat, looking at the poor visibility, looking at the trunk and back seat space and overall ergonomics she decided it just wasn't a good fit for her needs.

We bought a new version of the Mazda3 and she couldn't be happier - the tech, ergonomics, the fit, finish and materials used in the interior are huge leaps and bounds above what is in the Camaro RS. We got the highest trim level with pretty much all the options available, which is what she had in her previous Mazda - that was a 2015, the new one a 2021 model.

And she hasn't looked back - that was just the better car for her. Now - does she need a back seat? Not specifically - nobody rides back there, but she quite often uses it to carry cargo, along with the hatchback area. Much more practical for her - and much more of a normal car visibility too. It was the right choice.

Again - one data point, but I think that represents a lot of the potential buyers in that 60-70% category for the Camaro.
They want a sporty car that looks cool and drives tight, handles well etc. But without too many compromises. And there are choices in the market that deliver that - such as the Mazda3 as one perfect example.

For me - it's either the Camaro or a vette or 911 or M3, which are all drivers focused sports cars with limited utility and many compromises for the performance levels attained by these types of cars. So that's the mindset I go into a purchase decision with - and the SS came out the winner for me. But again that's probably in the 25% range of Camaro buyers which is already a tiny number to begin with.

There’s not much any Camaro from any year that’s going to have any equal comparison to a Mazda 3 and Vice versa. I guess the 3rd and 4th gens being hatchbacks with huge windows would be better

[c4racer]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I don't know if anyone really cross-shops between a Mazda3 hatch and a Camaro. Very different cars. I am willing to bet that, if you take her to see a Mustang, she would probably also turn it down and go with a Mazda3 hatchback.

Even with the 2.5T engine, I don't really consider Mazda3 as that sporty. It might be considered sporty in its segment(the not-so-hot hatch), but still. I have driven my friend's Mazda6 with the 2.5T for a daily and it's more like a diesel workhorse(that runs on gasoline) than a sporty, revvy engine like the 3.6 in the Camaro. In fact, Mazda as a whole has been shifting away from sporty to luxury.

Just hopping between my friend's Mazda6 and my own Camaro for the last two days have given me an idea how different they are. One is a more laid back luxury machine while the other one gives much more of a tight fighter jet feel.

Mazda3 is completely different car from a Mazda3. It handles quite well and is very agile with great steering feel and feedback from a very well done chassis - especially the 2020+ refresh.
Very similar in scope to a Camaro RS from a driving point of view.
Agree the motor is lame - but to me so is the V6 in the Camaro.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by c4racer

Mazda3 is completely different car from a Mazda3. It handles quite well and is very agile with great steering feel and feedback from a very well done chassis - especially the 2020+ refresh.
Very similar in scope to a Camaro RS from a driving point of view.
Agree the motor is lame - but to me so is the V6 in the Camaro.

The V6 Camaro is still great performance. 0-60 at 5 seconds is what the old 350 equipped 4th gens were.

It’s only lame if you’re comparing it to the current LT1 equipped Camaros lol.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The V6 Camaro is still great performance. 0-60 at 5 seconds is what the old 350 equipped 4th gens were.

It’s only lame if you’re comparing it to the current LT1 equipped Camaros lol.

And what is the Mazda3, 8-9 seconds?

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

And what is the Mazda3, 8-9 seconds?

Yeah 8.1 with the base 2.5 liter engine. If you go to the top of the line 3 turbo you can get it down to 5.7 seconds.

Camaro V6 is still 5 seconds - with the turbo 4 it’s 5.4 seconds

[c4racer]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The V6 Camaro is still great performance. 0-60 at 5 seconds is what the old 350 equipped 4th gens were.

It’s only lame if you’re comparing it to the current LT1 equipped Camaros lol.

the LT1 is the slowest car I own, so point of reference thing

[c4racer]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

And what is the Mazda3, 8-9 seconds?

perfect - keeps the wife out of trouble!!