[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

My own Corvette ownership, including my own local FB group with over 1200 members gives me a different impression than what you are saying. Not that you aren't correct in your experience, mine is just different.

For sure.

Out of all the vette owners I know 80% were retired, about 10% were middle aged car guys and the other 10% was younger enthusiast types that actually drove them hard, tracked them and modded them lol

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

For sure.

Out of all the vette owners I know 80% were retired, about 10% were middle aged car guys and the other 10% was younger enthusiast types that actually drove them hard, tracked them and modded them lol

The ones who actually track them are certainly the smallest group, but most I know I would consider car enthusiasts, very few only bought it for the image. It's probably mostly my area which sees winter nearly 6 months of the year

[Big Lebowski]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Great post Jim.

My comment was directed at a significant miss on the forecasting team, but I never meant it as the only factor in assessing C8 purchase trends.

The reason it has been focused on, including by myself, is that Tadge's 15% statement has been used and published by many - including some larger publishers like MT, C&D, etc. This bothers me as there is clear evidence that the worst manual take rate data is the 23% you posted here prior, which is closer to 25% than even 20%, making 15% just a made up number.

At any rate, I fully agree with your post above. What will be interesting for you and me is the success of the CT5-V Blackwing manual sales or not...should be telling for what the "could have been" but never will for a manual C8.

I was at a Cadillac dealer last week, and the Blackwing came up. He said the pre-orders were sold out immediately. Time will tell what percentage are manual, but I remember some buzz on the Corvette Forum about it... its the $84k base sticker for a GM performance sedan that gives me pause.

Once the capability to "build one" goes up online, I guess we will know how much extra a manual would cost in a GM car moving forward.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well the reason they probably went public with the declining take rate is most people wouldn't question it, as take rates for manual is dropping industry wide. Basically it was the easiest thing to say at the time probably.

It was not quoted as a declining or forecasted take rate. Tadge quoted it as THE C7 Corvette manual transmission take rate. That's the issue, as it was misleading to the overall C7 Corvette manual transmission actual interest and as NW-99SS has said many in the media , the Corvette Forum and now here have quoted that as THE percentage of C7 manuals.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

My own Corvette ownership, including my own local FB group with over 1200 members gives me a different impression than what you are saying. Not that you aren't correct in your experience, mine is just different.

Forums and car Facebook groups are a totally different group of people from the normal buyer of a car. Like if you were to look at GTI Facebook groups you'd think all GTI buyers are car people, but when I look on the road, a large portion look like they went to the dealer and bought the nicest Golf they had.



That being said, I'd think the majority of Corvette owners are at least somewhat of a car person. Maybe not going to track days, changing their own oil, going to shows kinds of car people, but no one buys a Corvette without wanting a sports car. There are enough compromises that you're not going to go to the dealer looking for a nice daily driver and walk out with a Corvette.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

Forums and car Facebook groups are a totally different group of people from the normal buyer of a car. Like if you were to look at GTI Facebook groups you'd think all GTI buyers are car people, but when I look on the road, a large portion look like they went to the dealer and bought the nicest Golf they had.



That being said, I'd think the majority of Corvette owners are at least somewhat of a car person. Maybe not going to track days, changing their own oil, going to shows kinds of car people, but no one buys a Corvette without wanting a sports car. There are enough compromises that you're not going to go to the dealer looking for a nice daily driver and walk out with a Corvette.

Agreed, and great post as well. My personal FB Corvette group is one I have physical involvement with, not just online, so I base my perspective more on that than just social media personalities and posts.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Big Lebowski

I was at a Cadillac dealer last week, and the Blackwing came up. He said the pre-orders were sold out immediately. Time will tell what percentage are manual, but I remember some buzz on the Corvette Forum about it... its the $84k base sticker for a GM performance sedan that gives me pause.

Once the capability to "build one" goes up online, I guess we will know how much extra a manual would cost in a GM car moving forward.



It was not quoted as a declining or forecasted take rate. Tadge quoted it as THE C7 Corvette manual transmission take rate. That's the issue, as it was misleading to the overall C7 Corvette manual transmission actual interest and as NW-99SS has said many in the media , the Corvette Forum and now here have quoted that as THE percentage of C7 manuals.

Those who wish for the demise of the manual - which lies in stark contrast to those who want a manual but are happy that a DCT is offered - will be interesting to watch when the data of the Blackwing transmission take rates reveals itself. I'm not expecting a huge surge in manuals, but I do expect around 30-35% - the same as the C7 Z cars have shown.

[Big Lebowski]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Those who wish for the demise of the manual - which lies in stark contrast to those who want a manual but are happy that a DCT is offered - will be interesting to watch when the data of the Blackwing transmission take rates reveals itself. I'm not expecting a huge surge in manuals, but I do expect around 30-35% - the same as the C7 Z cars have shown.

Agree, a 1/3 take rate wouldn’t shock me. A < 15% or a > 50% would.

[Bhobbs]

The manual take rate argument doesn’t make any sense to me. I guarantee GM sells a higher percentage of manual cars than Corvette owners track their car. GM might as well stop putting money into developing the track capability of the car. Just put base shocks and all seasons on the Z06 because most people just want the Z06 badge on the car. Hell, make the Z06 badge an add on for the base model and most people wouldn’t tell the difference.

The fact is a person that buys an automatic, drop top Z06 doesn’t want a Z06. They want the hype of owning a Z06. They want the image of driving the car. The C7 Z06 sold well, not because it’s a great Z06 but because it was so anti Z06.

[Big Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The manual take rate argument doesn’t make any sense to me. I guarantee GM sells a higher percentage of manual cars than Corvette owners track their car. GM might as well stop putting money into developing the track capability of the car. Just put base shocks and all seasons on the Z06 because most people just want the Z06 badge on the car. Hell, make the Z06 badge an add on for the base model and most people wouldn’t tell the difference.

The fact is a person that buys an automatic, drop top Z06 doesn’t want a Z06. They want the hype of owning a Z06. They want the image of driving the car. The C7 Z06 sold well, not because it’s a great Z06 but because it was so anti Z06.

I agree with you that a higher percentage of Corvette (and Camaro) cars are sold with manuals than the number of owners who track their car.

However, I am coming out of a M7 C7 Z06 Convertible, and my purchase had nothing to do with “hype” of a Z06. Yes, I was proud to own a Z06 but my decision to buy one had more do with owning a drop top with all the power I could afford to own. It was an absolute blast to drive, but though I have tracked Z06’s, I never intended to track my Z06 Vert. Strip the badges off and I still would have wanted that car.

[NW-99SS]

Just going to leave this here for those who think the manual market, especially one cars over 150K is dead:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39478/...l-transmission

"The Porsche 911 GT3 has always been one of the brand's most fun-to-drive track day specials, and for many drivers, there is no substitute for a manual transmission. Porsche's decision to put a manual transmission back into the 911 GT3 paid off far more than the brand expected, especially in the United States, where the take rate for the last-generation manual GT3 was 70%, Bloomberg reports. "

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Just going to leave this here for those who think the manual market, especially one cars over 150K is dead:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39478/...l-transmission

"The Porsche 911 GT3 has always been one of the brand's most fun-to-drive track day specials, and for many drivers, there is no substitute for a manual transmission. Porsche's decision to put a manual transmission back into the 911 GT3 paid off far more than the brand expected, especially in the United States, where the take rate for the last-generation manual GT3 was 70%, Bloomberg reports. "

SWEEEEET!!! See the German's get it.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

SWEEEEET!!! See the German's get it.

Fully agreed. Will GM pay attention I wonder??

[genxer]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Fully agreed. Will GM pay attention I wonder??

I imagine your fingers are crossed that the rumored C8 interior refresh is a cover for giving people a 3rd pedal + stick.

I was curious enough to check out the EV future thread on a Mustang forum, to gauge sentiment. Apoplectic! There was a guy saying their thread is now about ice cream!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

As far as the DCT being a manual...let’s just say they are very closely related. Notice that the performance DCTs in C8 and GT500 are made by Tremec, not ZF or Aisin. What else does Tremec make? They can use the same shaft and gear manufacturing equipment to manufacture most of the DCT.

If you look at a schematic of an AT, an MT, and a DCT, the DCT and the MT will look very much alike in design and part content. They are both layshaft designs. Most ATs (except Honda and early Saturns) are planetary design. Funny that some Saturns were not planetary (<—humor).

I am fully aware of all that. Enough to realize that comparing the internal workings is not a relevant approach to categorizing a DCT.

That a DCT is generally similar internally to a conventional MT does not address the defining characteristic that separates the manual transmission from any variation of automated transmission. That being whether the transmission has any capability of its own to select and execute gear changes without driver involvement beyond specifying 'D' or some other forward-direction range.

Basically, a DCT is an MT that shifts itself.

Exactly.

A DCT is also going to force the driver to drive away from every full stop in exactly the same fashion as if he was driving a car with a conventional torque converter'd, planetary gear'd automatic. For most drivers, it's going to end up being driven in identical fashion to the way it'd be driven if was equipped with a conventional automatic transmission - select 'D' and drive until you need a function that 'D' cannot support.


Norm