[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Not true. Someone who makes "good" money can't afford a Huracan/720S/911 Turbo S/GT3/GT2/Ferrari 488/812 Superfast/loaded ZR1, etc. But someone who makes good money can possibly afford a GT500/Hellcat/ZL1. (The Huracan Performante is my "dream" car, btw) When in automotive history could you buy a car with 760 factory hp for $74k (or the RE for similar price)? Never. With the Hellcat, when it came out, when before that could you buy a car with over 700 hp for whatever it cost when it came out? Before the 13/14 GT500, when could you buy a car with 662 hp for that price? They aren't necessarily "cheap" or low prices, but on a dollars per hp, they are a bargain compared to anytime in history. Heck, even the Corvette never had more than 650 hp until the ZR1 this year (but it starts at like $125k). The fact someone can get a base Z06 that screams in a straight line and around a track for $81k is great.

You keep talking about markups (which do suck). But, a product is worth what someone will pay for it, not necessarily what the manufacturer sets the price at. If people will pay a $10k markup, then the car is worth that much regardless if it will be outperformed on a track or drag strip (i.e., ZLE vs GT350R). I don't necessarily like it, but that's our economy. Obviously, there are other important items other than all out 'ring times.

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Wasn't the 1 trick pony Z28 over 75k with only 505 hp 5 years ago? If I recall there were dealer markups above that. Now you have a GT500 with 760 hp which will destroy a Z28 badly in any venue of racing and it is a fail? Isn't the ZL1-1LE package nearly 73k, the 500 will destroy this car in any trim in any straight line venue and will likely be much more day to day livable while doing so.

The ZL1 pricing has spoiled us as it was and is a bang for the buck. Yes 73k is a big chunk of change and dealer markups will be a problem but if you can find one for msrp it will be a hell of a car for the money. Patience on purchase will be the key. Think about it this way hell a loaded up SS or GT can reach 55k, a 1-trick RedEye WB in 79k, a 4x4 diesel pickup is now in the 75-85k price range. If I had the coin to blow I would have a base with the handling package in my garage right next to my Boss. Maybe in a few years

[Evansa22]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Wasn't the 1 trick pony Z28 over 75k with only 505 hp 5 years ago? If I recall there were dealer markups above that. Now you have a GT500 with 760 hp which will destroy a Z28 badly in any venue of racing and it is a fail? Isn't the ZL1-1LE package nearly 73k, the 500 will destroy this car in any trim in any straight line venue and will likely be much more day to day livable while doing so.

Like you said, that was 5 years ago by the time the gt500 lands. In todays automotive environment that is a long time, at least to me anyways. Also to note, msrp for the zle is 71-73k. However, people are getting them 6-8k off msrp, including me. 65k before ttl. With the 500 being a limited production (at least that's what I thought I read) as well as fords adm, you're not getting one for msrp. Probably lucky if you can get one for 10k above.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

You're delusional if you think someone could just "slip into" a Z06 for a "little more" than an SS. The Z06 starts at $81k. SS starts at $39k.

I'm talking about used Z06s.

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Wasn't the 1 trick pony Z28 over 75k with only 505 hp 5 years ago? If I recall there were dealer markups above that. Now you have a GT500 with 760 hp which will destroy a Z28 badly in any venue of racing and it is a fail? Isn't the ZL1-1LE package nearly 73k, the 500 will destroy this car in any trim in any straight line venue and will likely be much more day to day livable while doing so.

Wasn't the one trick pony GT350R selling for like well over $70K for a stripped down example after markups with only 526HP and got it's ass kicked by the $63K ZL1 like yesterday??

[jvandy50]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Wasn't the 1 trick pony Z28 over 75k with only 505 hp 5 years ago? If I recall there were dealer markups above that. Now you have a GT500 with 760 hp which will destroy a Z28 badly in any venue of racing and it is a fail? Isn't the ZL1-1LE package nearly 73k, the 500 will destroy this car in any trim in any straight line venue and will likely be much more day to day livable while doing so.

The ZL1 pricing has spoiled us as it was and is a bang for the buck. Yes 73k is a big chunk of change and dealer markups will be a problem but if you can find one for msrp it will be a hell of a car for the money. Patience on purchase will be the key. Think about it this way hell a loaded up SS or GT can reach 55k, a 1-trick RedEye WB in 79k, a 4x4 diesel pickup is now in the 75-85k price range. If I had the coin to blow I would have a base with the handling package in my garage right next to my Boss. Maybe in a few years

I agree with the bang for buck, but ya can’t really use the ZLE MSRP as many don’t pay that. The 350s have just began being under MSRP and the R at sticker is still rare. I paid 67.5k for a brand new ZLE and 60k for my turd 350...for that small of a difference i feel like, as you mentioned, bang for the buck with this car is a homerun.

The 500 still seems like a ridiculous price to me, knowing what i got into mine for. I have always been a mustang guy, but the way they released only photos of the CFTP(unobtainium) cars and nothing for us peasants, along with a breeding ground for crazy ADMs...no thanks. And just wow at the puzzle pieces HP release.

They finally gave us some base model pics in the last couple months and damnnn does that car looks BASE. Love the ecoboost wheels for 74k lol. I understand one can fix that(by throwing more money at it), it’s just disappointing.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by jvandy50

I agree with the bang for buck, but ya can’t really use the ZLE MSRP as many don’t pay that. The 350s have just began being under MSRP and the R at sticker is still rare. I paid 67.5k for a brand new ZLE and 60k for my turd 350...for that small of a difference i feel like, as you mentioned, bang for the buck with this car is a homerun.

The 500 still seems like a ridiculous price to me, knowing what i got into mine for. I have always been a mustang guy, but the way they released only photos of the CFTP(unobtainium) cars and nothing for us peasants, along with a breeding ground for crazy ADMs...no thanks. And just wow at the puzzle pieces HP release.

They finally gave us some base model pics in the last couple months and damnnn does that car looks BASE. Love the ecoboost wheels for 74k lol. I understand one can fix that(by throwing more money at it), it’s just disappointing.

The GT350s are not selling under MSRP. They actually increased the MSRP by like $5,000.

My ZL1 was $69K and I got 2 rebates on it. No other company can make a competitor to the ZL1 at it's price. We're seeing that now. The fact of the matter is that GM is clearly superior to Ford.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I don't disagree with the C8 Z06 sentiment. That's going to be a beast. I very much doubt the base C8 will beat the GT500 to 60 by nearly a half second. Base C8 will likely be in the low 3s, assuming the Z51 is "under 3", which we know means 2.99 seconds (sort of like "under $60k" meant $59,995 and only for the '20 model year). Most likely the GT500 will be in the low 3s on stock tires, and not under 3 due to traction limits with a FE RWD car. The ZL1 is 3.4 seconds 0-60, which we know the GT500 will beat. So most likely 3.2 seconds 0-60, but after 60, vs a C8, it will be all GT500 due to the immense power advantage.

GT500 vs RE will be interesting...the two cars have essentially the same power to weight ratio (GT500 may be a hair better).

Agreed - this is my expectation realistically. Let's hope Ford puts proper tires on this GT500 and learns from the GT350, because factory rubber on past GT500s was atrocious.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It is early to be printing information on either vehicle beyond ‘21, but there are still some sources of credible information. Mustang was originally on path for a major upgrade for ‘21 MY, Camaro for ‘22. Best information currently available (to me at least...someone else may have better) is that neither major upgrade is happening. Despite the ridiculous performance gains that we as consumers are seeing year over year, the sales market for these types of vehicles is dropping fast, causing manufacturers to rethink investment. The only thing that is different between GM’s position with Camaro and Ford’s position with Mustang is the duration of their “we’ll figure out what’s next” period.

Ford has said S550 will be refreshed in the ‘21 - ‘22 timeframe and decisions made on next gen sometime around ‘26. GM has officially said zip, but the one widely quoted source claims information stating the ‘20 refresh will carry through until ‘23. Information I have personally seen indicates A1BC (the official project code for Cam6) will continue at least through ‘23. This particular information source does not give a definitive view beyond ‘23 for any vehicle due to the nature of the info.

Actually, there is another difference. Ford has already committed to hybrid and EV versions of Mustang. GM is still sticking to the “not at liberty to discuss future programs” mantra.

This is the info I was alluding to. Thanks Martin

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by jvandy50

I agree with the bang for buck, but ya can’t really use the ZLE MSRP as many don’t pay that. The 350s have just began being under MSRP and the R at sticker is still rare. I paid 67.5k for a brand new ZLE and 60k for my turd 350...for that small of a difference i feel like, as you mentioned, bang for the buck with this car is a homerun.

The 500 still seems like a ridiculous price to me, knowing what i got into mine for. I have always been a mustang guy, but the way they released only photos of the CFTP(unobtainium) cars and nothing for us peasants, along with a breeding ground for crazy ADMs...no thanks. And just wow at the puzzle pieces HP release.

They finally gave us some base model pics in the last couple months and damnnn does that car looks BASE. Love the ecoboost wheels for 74k lol. I understand one can fix that(by throwing more money at it), it’s just disappointing.

EcoBoost wheels lol. It does look that way.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Yeah, the S550 is by no means perfect. With the '18+ GT M6 Ford messed up the gear ratio selections. 1st starts out really low, but by 4th gear it is 1:1, matching the SS 4th gear which starts out higher in 1st gear. So the gear spacing is really wide between 1-4, causing the engine to be out of its powerband more so than it should be. That hinders an engine like the Gen 3 Coyote that loves to scream at the top. They should have made 4th lower to keep the gear spacing closer. Then there would be no GT*. Just 12.1 second A10s and 12.2 second '18 GT M6s.

I agree that the coyote needs less gear spacing and or more gears keeping at higher revs to shine since it doesn't have the torque to compensate for tall or widely spaced out gearing but does have the RPM to run out short gearing out longer. A factory m6 tranny that has to keep mpg's in mind for the most part is not going to be geared favorably for the mustang compared to a car with a torquier motor imo. Not to mention you have to down shift a lot more to find power.

The m6 mustang is already behind the m6 camaro in 0-60 and 0-100 in the 1st through 3rd shifts, I don't think a shorter 4th will make a .4 second difference in the 1/4. It would need reworked gearing from 1-4, the 3 to 4 gear change isn't really spaced out any further than the other 2 gear changes before that, they're all a little wide. That 1:1 4th gear does give the mustang the advantage in high speed rolls since it can rev out to 150mph and the 4 to 5 shift is a lot tighter, where the camaro has to shift into a very tall 5th at 139mph. A 4.10/4.09 rear end might tighten everything up though without having to re gear the whole mt82.

If we're talking pretend numbers maybe the a8/a10 Camaro would be an 11.8 car if it had a 3.55 or similar rear end instead of a 2.77. Also the stupid "GT*" thing would still be a thing technically because both m6 and a10 stangs have different rear end ratio options for pp1 cars vs base cars.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I agree that the coyote needs less gear spacing and or more gears keeping at higher revs to shine since it doesn't have the torque to compensate for tall or widely spaced out gearing but does have the RPM to run out short gearing out longer. A factory m6 tranny that has to keep mpg's in mind for the most part is not going to be geared favorably for the mustang compared to a car with a torquier motor imo. Not to mention you have to down shift a lot more to find power.

The m6 mustang is already behind the m6 camaro in 0-60 and 0-100 in the 1st through 3rd shifts, I don't think a shorter 4th will make a .4 second difference in the 1/4. It would need reworked gearing from 1-4, the 3 to 4 gear change isn't really spaced out any further than the other 2 gear changes before that, they're all a little wide. That 1:1 4th gear does give the mustang the advantage in high speed rolls since it can rev out to 150mph and the 4 to 5 shift is a lot tighter, where the camaro has to shift into a very tall 5th at 139mph. A 4.10/4.09 rear end might tighten everything up though without having to re gear the whole mt82.

If we're talking pretend numbers maybe the a8/a10 Camaro would be an 11.8 car if it had a 3.55 or similar rear end instead of a 2.77. Also the stupid "GT*" thing would still be a thing technically because both m6 and a10 stangs have different rear end ratio options for pp1 cars vs base cars.

I dont know if a 3.55 over a 2.77 in the A10 SS would make much difference. There is a stock SS on the fast list already running 11.77. With the stock torque reducing bog I dont know if the 3.55 would help much. With a different tune and the protection bog removed maybe.

The problem with the GT M6 is that the gearing seems totally off for the power band of the engine. The 15-17 transmission felt better but you had to shift to 3rd to hit 60 mph on PP models. So that slowed you down a lot.

The MT-82 is a bad tranny imo. Seems to me that Ford just threw it in the S550 to offer a manual and that was the cheapest way to do it. The revised gearing in the 18 model feels better but it still isn't there yet.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I dont know if a 3.55 over a 2.77 in the A10 SS would make much difference. There is a stock SS on the fast list already running 11.77. With the stock torque reducing bog I dont know if the 3.55 would help much. With a different tune and the protection bog removed maybe.

The problem with the GT M6 is that the gearing seems totally off for the power band of the engine. The 15-17 transmission felt better but you had to shift to 3rd to hit 60 mph on PP models. So that slowed you down a lot.

The MT-82 is a bad tranny imo. Seems to me that Ford just threw it in the S550 to offer a manual and that was the cheapest way to do it. The revised gearing in the 18 model feels better but it still isn't there yet.

Yea I was just "what if'ing" out of my ass with the 3.55 swap for a 2.77 as a rebutal to a shorter 4th gear making a .4 difference in the 1/4 for an 18 m6 mustang. I know there's already stock camaros running 11s, but I meant like a magazine review 11.8 so it can be "official".

I agree with you on the mt82, and yea the 15-17s had tighter gearing but it was almost too tight and you have to shift like crazy. 5th gear was the 1:1 and 6th was a super steep overdrive, kind of a big drop off at high speed. I think the revised 18 gearing is better once guys mod and add power imo.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

Are you in the position to buy a $250k plus play around car?

Doesn't matter. There are plenty who are and never buy an "exotic" car. You can't lump everyone together.

[jvandy50]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT350s are not selling under MSRP. They actually increased the MSRP by like $5,000.

salesman on SVTP literally just sold his 4-5 2020 model 350s at 1k over invoice. not an R though.

many people were getting 18s and 19s under MSRP also. again, the regular 350 model.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I agree that the coyote needs less gear spacing and or more gears keeping at higher revs to shine since it doesn't have the torque to compensate for tall or widely spaced out gearing but does have the RPM to run out short gearing out longer. A factory m6 tranny that has to keep mpg's in mind for the most part is not going to be geared favorably for the mustang compared to a car with a torquier motor imo. Not to mention you have to down shift a lot more to find power.

The m6 mustang is already behind the m6 camaro in 0-60 and 0-100 in the 1st through 3rd shifts, I don't think a shorter 4th will make a .4 second difference in the 1/4. It would need reworked gearing from 1-4, the 3 to 4 gear change isn't really spaced out any further than the other 2 gear changes before that, they're all a little wide. That 1:1 4th gear does give the mustang the advantage in high speed rolls since it can rev out to 150mph and the 4 to 5 shift is a lot tighter, where the camaro has to shift into a very tall 5th at 139mph. A 4.10/4.09 rear end might tighten everything up though without having to re gear the whole mt82.

If we're talking pretend numbers maybe the a8/a10 Camaro would be an 11.8 car if it had a 3.55 or similar rear end instead of a 2.77. Also the stupid "GT*" thing would still be a thing technically because both m6 and a10 stangs have different rear end ratio options for pp1 cars vs base cars.

I wasn't implying that only 4th gear be changed. I was saying that 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears should all be spaced slightly closer together to keep the engine in it's upper powerband longer. Currently the gear spacing is 3.24/2.10/1.42/1.00/0.81/0.62. Without any testing to back my theory, I'd suggest something more like 3.24/2.25/1.60/1.17/0.92/0.62 or something like that.

Anyway, obviously they have a reason for doing what they do as they spaced the A10 gearing perfectly for optimum acceleration. Just curious about the M6 choices is all.

[NW-99SS]

Let's make some predictions:

A10 ZLE vs CF TP GT500

VIR

Laguna Seca

C&D Lightning Lap

Pick your winner for best overall time.

Stips (we all love Stips!):

For comparison tires have to be one of the following:

1. Factory Spec

2. Same spec tire on both cars.

Annnnnnd go!