[WhiteMale]

40 years ago with OPEC and Emissions, Leaded/Unleaded,times got tough but ICE never went away and in fact are bigger/stronger/faster than ever before. People cried a lot way back then and the doom and gloom never really came to pass.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Mike818

sure, but how much cheaper is an E-ray than a Porsche 918.

My PHEV X5 is already superior to the straight ICE equivalent. With the exception of a slight sacrifice to payload and towing (batteries are still heavy). The benefits easily justify that though, and with .gov incentives it was cheaper than the straight ICE version as well. Benefits like carpool lane access.

Why is that? Well .gov wrote the regulations so that if a vehicle is capable of X amount of EV only miles it counts as an EV. This is how ICE will continue into the future (IMO), as a plug-in hybrid. ICE when you need it, ICE + Electric when you want it (all the torque), EV when it makes sense.

Really? I doubt it. How long to charge? What's the range? The real range, the one where you're driving with three people in the car, don't charge over 80% capacity (gotta save that battery life) heater going and it's 20 degrees outside. 200 miles? If that? 45 minutes to charge, or more? I bet more, a lot more.

Oh, I see, I'll get rid of my fun ICE sports car to get an appliance I can drive in the carpool lane. Oooh that's sounds like so much fun.

Then when the US adopts the same regulations the UK has the government can determine when I can charge and how much I can charge. They can also drain my battery when the grid needs the power more than I do.

No thanks.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by Supr4n3

Yeah, I think the e-ray is 40k more than the stingray. Hard pill to swallow.

But that's not just because of the electrification. It's a wide-body like the Z06, has bigger wheels/tires like the Z06 and has standard carbon ceramic brakes(which even the Z06 doesn't have as standard equipment). Lot's of other contributing parts and factors in the E-Ray price other than just the battery and AWD.

[Mike818]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Really? I doubt it. How long to charge? What's the range? The real range, the one where you're driving with three people in the car, don't charge over 80% capacity (gotta save that battery life) heater going and it's 20 degrees outside. 200 miles? If that? 45 minutes to charge, or more? I bet more, a lot more.

Oh, I see, I'll get rid of my fun ICE sports car to get an appliance I can drive in the carpool lane. Oooh that's sounds like so much fun.

Then when the US adopts the same regulations the UK has the government can determine when I can charge and how much I can charge. They can also drain my battery when the grid needs the power more than I do.

No thanks.

It has a Turbo Inline 6 cylinder engine and a full sized gas tank so I don't know why any of your questions are relevant? When the battery runs out it runs like a regular hybrid. EV only range depends a lot on what I am doing, but anywhere between 20-38 miles on electric only. ~80% of the miles my wife and I have put on the vehicle have been electric only.

[1fastz28]

Originally Posted by Mike818

It has a Turbo Inline 6 cylinder engine and a full sized gas tank so I don't know why any of your questions are relevant? When the battery runs out it runs like a regular hybrid. EV only range depends a lot on what I am doing, but anywhere between 20-38 miles on electric only. ~80% of the miles my wife and I have put on the vehicle have been electric only.

PHEV are perfect for a normal daily runabout car. You can charge it over night, do your local errands and rarely have to buy gas. But if you want to go on a long trip you don't have to worry about stopping to charge for 30 mins like a normal EV, its a win/win.

[Mike818]

They will be great for performance cars too, especially as battery technology continues to advance.

Electric motors don't only act like another power adder for the ICE, but they can theoretically slow the car down as fast as they can accelerate it. This means they can do a bunch of the braking (So long as the batteries can accept the power). Thus the brakes can be smaller / lighter and they wont get as hot. This will allow for a lot of optimizing in the suspension. Electric motors instant torque complements the laggy( by comparison ) torque curve of the ICE very nicely in my experience as well.

[Capricio]

yes, equipping vehicles with two power trains and power sources, doubling the complexity and thereby reducing the reliability... while increasing cost... sounds great. What does one do with a 12 year old Prius with good gas engine and dead battery?

I'm not against these hybrids, the new Corolla seems well priced for what it is. But in that price range, I'd take simple reliability and paying more for gas than the complexity and upfront cost of a the hybrid version. I tend to keep cars a long time and past 200k miles. I don't see hybrid powertrains getting that far, yet.

[Bumbleboy92]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Really? I doubt it. How long to charge? What's the range? The real range, the one where you're driving with three people in the car, don't charge over 80% capacity (gotta save that battery life) heater going and it's 20 degrees outside. 200 miles? If that? 45 minutes to charge, or more? I bet more, a lot more.

Oh, I see, I'll get rid of my fun ICE sports car to get an appliance I can drive in the carpool lane. Oooh that's sounds like so much fun.

Then when the US adopts the same regulations the UK has the government can determine when I can charge and how much I can charge. They can also drain my battery when the grid needs the power more than I do.

No thanks.

Originally Posted by Mike818

It has a Turbo Inline 6 cylinder engine and a full sized gas tank so I don't know why any of your questions are relevant? When the battery runs out it runs like a regular hybrid. EV only range depends a lot on what I am doing, but anywhere between 20-38 miles on electric only. ~80% of the miles my wife and I have put on the vehicle have been electric only.

I’ll throw some dice into the X5 talk, I have a regular X5 xDrive40i (all-wheel with same inline 6 turbo). If I’m remembering right, they detuned the PHEV’s engine slightly but keeps the same range. I get close to 500 miles on a full tank so with the PHEV it’s probably at least 500. Regular mpg is hovering under 20mpg on just engine.

These hybrid cars are really interesting and definitely have a jump no matter the length from their regular gas versions

While the X5’s implementation is for range and electrification goodies it still has the same motor as the regular car.

I think if anything the option for a electric or hybrid variant is nice and more of a acceptable possibility for most people who don’t live in say California or somewhere with a expansive charging network

[Mike818]

Originally Posted by Bumbleboy92

I’ll throw some dice into the X5 talk, I have a regular X5 xDrive40i (all-wheel with same inline 6 turbo). If I’m remembering right, they detuned the PHEV’s engine slightly but keeps the same range. I get close to 500 miles on a full tank so with the PHEV it’s probably at least 500. Regular mpg is hovering under 20mpg on just engine.

These hybrid cars are really interesting and definitely have a jump no matter the length from their regular gas versions

While the X5’s implementation is for range and electrification goodies it still has the same motor as the regular car.

I think if anything the option for a electric or hybrid variant is nice and more of a acceptable possibility for most people who don’t live in say California or somewhere with a expansive charging network

That's right, the B58 is slightly detuned. Unless I am misremembering, the ICE and the Electric motor together is a greater net output though. The batteries are heavy so I'm not sure how it all turns out in the end performance wise.

Another thing to consider is being able to choose to not put junky miles on the ICE. There are those short trips that you would feel guilty firing up the ICE on your sports car to go do, so you take the beater. Well with the PHEV you can take the car you want to drive, and you wont have to feel guilty about not getting a good heat cycle into the engine. Idling, stop and go traffic, waiting in a que etc..


As far as increased complexity, reliability etc I would point out that the new Toyota Land Cruiser is a hybrid with a turbo 4 cylinder. It's not a PHEV, but I think that has more to do with them not having their new solid state batteries ready to go yet. Anyway if you know anything about that vehicle you know Toyota has to be pretty confident with that decision.

[genxer]

A muscle awd should be a democratized GT-R setup with C7 driveline parts. I'd rather an awd be a sedan, and share parts with a Camaro that stays lighter.

If the Vette continues going herd exotic futurist... the way things are going, regular income fellas don't need to worry.

[Capricio]

Bottom Line for me... I don't want a car with two power trains unless/until I'm convinced both have equal reliability and longevity. Regardless, one will fail before the other and decrease the overall life of your vehicle.

I don't care what the ROI is buying some extra fuel. The price of fuel if we chose to produce it can be very cheap, so throwing in another regulatory/tax burden, just as with the carpool argument, doesn't really address the real merits of one tech over the other. I've said other threads, KWH won't remain cheap if gas tax revenues dry up and the grid needs huge infrastructure improvements to sustain the increased loads that EVs will bring.

[Mike818]

The bit about the car pool lane was to illustrate the point that .gov sees these kinds of vehicles as a solution and not a problem.

Reliability wise I think you have it backwards. If one breaks the other still works. In theory anyway. Having both means you can use either when it's optimum to do so and probably increase longevity of both for it. I've gone weeks without the ICE ever running in the X5, and after a software update it ran like an ICE for a drive cycle or two. So I have some reason to believe I could continue to operate it if the ICE or the battery took a dump. The trans though....that would still be a single point of failure.

Before mass production I believe people use to buy fuel at the hardware store. EV's no EV's....the grid sucks. We gotta upgrade it anyway.