[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

2 seconds per average lap is a terrific result. Dont forget GM put Trofeos on Gen5 Z28 and they were largely responsible for its fantastic pace. Yet Gen6 SS 1LE beat it at Laguna on G3s and less power...

whoops .. with Trofeo Rs it was actually about 1.1 seconds faster than the OEM tires in a 2 min course, not 2 seconds. That was when I noticed something was not right with the balance of the car. It was probably the combination of things. I was running an incorrect offset in the rear that puts the wheels 18mm outward on both sides. That's a whopping 36mm wider track in the rear. No wonder I was having some awful understeer with the Trofeo Rs along with the body roll in mid corner (that was definitely added grip.. car felt like a boat lol)

Also with the Gen 6 they improved the car so much (chassis, e diff, weight, suspension geometry ,,etc) so it's a great proof the previous gen Z28 was still slightly behind the Gen 6 SS 1LE. Still though, we know that Trofeo Rs offer more grip much more than a street tire can offer. I have no doubt if the suspension could keep up with the Trofeo Rs time delta would be bigger, body roll and corner entry push is actually proof of something wasn't right ..yet it was still faster compared to OEM s

Here's a video from that day:

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Yes they run stock cars but with Z07 package spring rates, sway bars and MRC tune (as well as the ABS programming) change dramatically compared to non-Z07 cars as they're already tuned to run with Cup 2s.

I am surprised the fact that you experienced outside front tire wear after the sway bar install. The whole purpose of sway bar install is to eliminate that outer wear caused by the body roll and to defeat the slower weight transfer. Maybe with the amount of confidence (more flat feel) you ended up driving harder? or somehow your alignment changed during that (not enough camber or whacked toe)? I am pretty sure something was not right.

Sway bars are more of a necessity on regular Z51 cars as they don't have stiffer suspension. My friend who switched to sway bars and LG coils ended up shaving his lap times by 6 seconds when had a Z51 (before the Z06 Z07)!! that's a lot and his outer tire wear definitely improved since less roll on them. I have to add though that huge lap time difference also happened since he increased the front tire size to 315 feom 245 and he replaced the leaf suspensions with LG coils.. the effect would be much smaller on our cars of course. With the 315s his car also felt like a boat haha

Take a look at this photo , the only difference is LG sways



Ryephile also mentions that his lap times improved but he didn't like the G3Rs as much ..

take a look at below:

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=125

and

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=139

Like I said, better lap times don't always translate to better car feel. Gearing and rotational mass changes greatly improve the trap speeds and overall acceleration that also shaves seconds

I didn't experience outside shoulder wear. The wear was right across and the tire was done. Simply said the front bars were too stiff. Dont forget that stiffer F sway will load the tire faster *but* also promote understeer. Anyway, the car was perfect otherwise and didnt need any adjustments. I too had LG coilovers btw.

My point is, a bit stiffer (like Ryephile did) for stickier tires may be beneficial. But not at all necessary to run slicks. Especially on any car without much if any aero like our cars (zle excepted, hence stiffer Multimatic suspension).

Well, this was Ryephile's first day out on G3Rs 2 yrs ago plus a new sway set up, etc. So i am sure he took some time to adjust. But, he makes an excellent point: to get more out of stickier tires one has to be more aggressive, yet more precise at the same time. At this takes high level of skill. Lest the pace wont increase magically, not to the full potential of the tires anyway. Studying the vids of your Vette buds, they do exactly that. GS guy is more aggressive (and perhaps more confident in his abilities - btw confidence without ability can be deadly!) and hence he is the fastest. The Z06 guy a wee bit less so, but he does hustle the car nicely as well!
And of course there is a difference in hustling 460hp vs 650hp .

So, their Z06 suspensions have been developed for Cup2s yet they do just fine with DOT slicks. SS 1LE/ZL1 suspensions have been developed for G3 which is in a spitting distance to Cup2. And again, some VERY fast folks run full slicks on these cars with zero mods (except for rims) with great successes. I rest my case

Lastly, looking at your G3s vs Trofeo vids (thanks!) Id say there is more delta to be found. No doubt your rear offset was messing you up very badly, as your lap on Trofeos is rather inconsistent, with some mid corner speeds actually appearing lower than those on G3s. So with proper set up i am sure you'd be able to push much, much harder. Anyway, it is all good fun! Cheers!

PS looking at the prices of 285/315 RR on that website, they are still quite a bit more than G3 stockers (about $500+ per set before delivery fees). It is too bad they are not available N of the border. I may just try a set of G3Rs for the heck of it and then go back to stockers (a perfect arrive and drive tire imo).

[Provoste]

My experience- 3R’s are without a doubt the fastest treaded tire I’ve ever driven. 3R is lightyears faster than a Cup 2 or N-spec Cup 2. Trofeo R’s are absolutely terrific tires, much better on the road than a 3R, but slower on track. I’d take a NT01 8 days a week over a R888R. I’ve never driver a Toyo RR, I’ve heard it’s a pretty good tire though.

Side note, for Gridlife GLTC wheel to wheel racing, I’m contemplating running 3R’s on my S54 swapped narrow body e46 race car (275/30 18). They are within about a second of a R7 on a 2 mile track, and I get a -2% modifier (2% less weight) if I choose these over a Hoosier.

Here is my 1:36 Mid Ohio lap on 3R ZLE spec wheels and tires on my SS 1LE @ Mid Ohio.
https://youtu.be/QIrHPCUFIvM

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I didn't experience outside shoulder wear. The wear was right across and the tire was done. Simply said the front bars were too stiff. Dont forget that stiffer F sway will load the tire faster *but* also promote understeer. Anyway, the car was perfect otherwise and didnt need any adjustments. I too had LG coilovers btw.

My point is, a bit stiffer (like Ryephile did) for stickier tires may be beneficial. But not at all necessary to run slicks. Especially on any car without much if any aero like our cars (zle excepted, hence stiffer Multimatic suspension).

Well, this was Ryephile's first day out on G3Rs 2 yrs ago plus a new sway set up, etc. So i am sure he took some time to adjust. But, he makes an excellent point: to get more out of stickier tires one has to be more aggressive, yet more precise at the same time. At this takes high level of skill. Lest the pace wont increase magically, not to the full potential of the tires anyway. Studying the vids of your Vette buds, they do exactly that. GS guy is more aggressive (and perhaps more confident in his abilities - btw confidence without ability can be deadly!) and hence he is the fastest. The Z06 guy a wee bit less so, but he does hustle the car nicely as well!
And of course there is a difference in hustling 460hp vs 650hp .

So, their Z06 suspensions have been developed for Cup2s yet they do just fine with DOT slicks. SS 1LE/ZL1 suspensions have been developed for G3 which is in a spitting distance to Cup2. And again, some VERY fast folks run full slicks on these cars with zero mods (except for rims) with great successes. I rest my case

Lastly, looking at your G3s vs Trofeo vids (thanks!) Id say there is more delta to be found. No doubt your rear offset was messing you up very badly, as your lap on Trofeos is rather inconsistent, with some mid corner speeds actually appearing lower than those on G3s. So with proper set up i am sure you'd be able to push much, much harder. Anyway, it is all good fun! Cheers!

PS looking at the prices of 285/315 RR on that website, they are still quite a bit more than G3 stockers (about $500+ per set before delivery fees). It is too bad they are not available N of the border. I may just try a set of G3Rs for the heck of it and then go back to stockers (a perfect arrive and drive tire imo).

Sorry to hear you guys can't order them in Canada.
I agree with most of the above comments. I was able to cut about 1.5 seconds right after I added sway bars, (I had coilovers but stock bars)

Originally Posted by Provoste

My experience- 3R’s are without a doubt the fastest treaded tire I’ve ever driven. 3R is lightyears faster than a Cup 2 or N-spec Cup 2. Trofeo R’s are absolutely terrific tires, much better on the road than a 3R, but slower on track. I’d take a NT01 8 days a week over a R888R. I’ve never driver a Toyo RR, I’ve heard it’s a pretty good tire though.

Side note, for Gridlife GLTC wheel to wheel racing, I’m contemplating running 3R’s on my S54 swapped narrow body e46 race car (275/30 18). They are within about a second of a R7 on a 2 mile track, and I get a -2% modifier (2% less weight) if I choose these over a Hoosier.

Here is my 1:36 Mid Ohio lap on 3R ZLE spec wheels and tires on my SS 1LE @ Mid Ohio.
https://youtu.be/QIrHPCUFIvM

Wow, that would make them as good as RR tires then ..maybe
even slightly better. Are we talking about fresh R7s, similar conditions? so there's no way they are actually 100 tw tires like NT01s etc

There are tons of available good tires to pick from on those BMW sizes. I would also try Hankook TD 221, Z214, Nankang AR1s and Toyo RRs to see how they stack each other trying different tires are fun

[TrackClub]

Provoste: what a terrific lap. That's what i call pushing! Yeah! If not for that one wiggle you may have been in the 55s...
But in any case, you beat ZLE posted times with a puny SS and came within less than 1 sec from a ZLE on slicks.
Proof in the proverbial pudding of what a stock SS 1le is capable of with a superb driver and sticky tires. Having said that, this is not the only vid of yours that qualifies

Cem: the days when tires had reasonable tread ratings to compare them across manufacturers are long gone. Actually, they never existed as such, as they always applied as intra vs inter manufactures standards.
G3s, RS4, Rival, G3Rs, etc are all excellent examples of manufacturers playing to amateur racing organizing bodies rules and handing races gifts of speed without PIP penalties

PS Taking a closer look at these 2 Vettes: i swear the top one has Pirellis on?

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Provoste

My experience- 3R’s are without a doubt the fastest treaded tire I’ve ever driven. 3R is lightyears faster than a Cup 2 or N-spec Cup 2. Trofeo R’s are absolutely terrific tires, much better on the road than a 3R, but slower on track. I’d take a NT01 8 days a week over a R888R. I’ve never driver a Toyo RR, I’ve heard it’s a pretty good tire though.

Side note, for Gridlife GLTC wheel to wheel racing, I’m contemplating running 3R’s on my S54 swapped narrow body e46 race car (275/30 18). They are within about a second of a R7 on a 2 mile track, and I get a -2% modifier (2% less weight) if I choose these over a Hoosier.

Here is my 1:36 Mid Ohio lap on 3R ZLE spec wheels and tires on my SS 1LE @ Mid Ohio.
https://youtu.be/QIrHPCUFIvM

Thanks for sharing your experience!
SC3Rs only 1 second slower than R7’s! That is a fast treaded tire!!! I’m looking forward to experiencing them

[GunMetalGrey]

Wondering if there is a reason to go with stiffer sway bars rather than stiffer springs or vice versa? Or both?

I now have YYZ springs in my ZL1 because I’m going to be using SC3R tires this season (as well as 19” wheels) and aside from giving the car a slightly lower stance I thought these springs would be the best at handling the extra grip of the tires and reducing any increased body roll.
They seem to be the most performance orientated springs, as that is what the makers (Powell Racing) intended them for, with progressive spring rates that start out the same as the stock levels but then progressively get much stiffer.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cem: the days when tires had reasonable tread ratings to compare them across manufacturers are long gone. Actually, they never existed as such, as they always applied as intra vs inter manufactures standards.
G3s, RS4, Rival, G3Rs, etc are all excellent examples of manufacturers playing to amateur racing organizing bodies rules and handing races gifts of speed without PIP penalties

PS Taking a closer look at these 2 Vettes: i swear the top one has Pirellis on?

Yes, I am aware of that also. Many tires are cheater these days with their unrealistic TW ratings (RE71RS, Cup2s and now the G3Rs)

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Wondering if there is a reason to go with stiffer sway bars rather than stiffer springs or vice versa? Or both?

I now have YYZ springs in my ZL1 because I’m going to be using SC3R tires this season (as well as 19” wheels) and aside from giving the car a slightly lower stance I thought these springs would be the best at handling the extra grip of the tires and reducing any increased body roll.
They seem to be the most performance orientated springs, as that is what the makers (Powell Racing) intended them for, with progressive spring rates that start out the same as the stock levels but then progressively get much stiffer.

I personally wouldn't mess with springs given the MRCs programming that are designed for those spring rates and overall suspension geometry. Sway bars on the other hand, don't really have any penalty and only work when you turn, eliminate the body roll caused by the extra grip from more agressive tires. ..it doesn't negativity affect the ride quality for street use too.

One advantage of the stiffer spring / softer sway route (similar to ZLE) might be when there's multiple turns that require you to hit the bumps it may better absorb them, other than that for big sweepers where sustained g is higher and car tends lean on one side, stiff swaybars would keep the car flat.. better for turn in too (stiffer sway up front). No effect on nose dive, braking etc like the springs.. to eliminate all that we'd need stiffer springs.

I personally like both high spring rates and stiff swaybars on all the other cars but don't want to go coilovers route unless I have to. Here's hoping the sway bars will be beneficial and will take care of that body roll with more aggressive tires and give more confidence..

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Wondering if there is a reason to go with stiffer sway bars rather than stiffer springs or vice versa? Or both?

I now have YYZ springs in my ZL1 because I’m going to be using SC3R tires this season (as well as 19” wheels) and aside from giving the car a slightly lower stance I thought these springs would be the best at handling the extra grip of the tires and reducing any increased body roll.
They seem to be the most performance orientated springs, as that is what the makers (Powell Racing) intended them for, with progressive spring rates that start out the same as the stock levels but then progressively get much stiffer.

No disrespect, but your second paragraph makes zero sense, as stiffer springs are neither required for running softer rubber, nor should they be used as a first choice for eliminating body roll.

Read the first long paragraph that describes the reason for these springs. By no means they were "intended" for racing, or track use as their primary design point. Their own words specify "occasional track use". Note there is no promise of faster laptimes, nor any comparison in laptimes before and after. Just 3 Camaro owner dudes who did the testing. Who or what they are we have no idea. I dont know any of them. Now if say Ron Fellows said his pace increased at Mosport, then i would be all over those springs. I support and respect anyone trying to make a buck, but choose wisely and re-read the design purpose carefully without jumping to conclusions which are not specified. More importantly, note, there is no mention of a ZL1, which has different MRC calibration, amongs other suspension differences vs SS.

I agree (obviously) with Cem's comments to your last post. Something ive said here a few times now (with no impact it seems - but i keep trying ). Have you drawn any conclusions from the comments by a Technical Director of a famous Indycar team?

I support Cem's comments about a firmer F sway bar, but that's his personal preference and a vast majority of folks that run DOT and full slicks run stock suspensions.
Why not check the fastest laps and PM some of them to get first hand feedback? Plenty of folks with ZL1s running R7/G3R to share their bone fide experiences with you.
Not to mention Provoste's own experience, which he posted here for ya. Note he didnt mention a need for any changes to his stock SS. To the contrary, he was elated how soon he could get on throttle. But maybe PM him for extra info. At least you know exactly whom you're dealing with (one of top drivers on this forum).

Lastly, be aware of this: stiffer means less mechanical grip (ref that vid I posted to validate this fact). This goes for springs as well as sway bars. While stiffer F bar will load the outside F tire faster (and make the initial transition quicker as a result), if you are not very precise with your driving, the car will understeer MORE and hence defeat your quest for faster laps.

Given your relative lack of feel for the car (at this stage of your development), which often results in massive corner entry understeer (and general overdriving while leaning hard on Stabilitrack which is masking your errors and saving your ass), a stiffer F bar would be completely unproductive and make things worse vs better. Both for your laptimes as well as tire wear. At this stage anyway.

I respect what you are trying to accomplish, but without a single lap on G3R (or any other stickier tire), trying to set up a car for better performance without having ANY baseline is not a right strategy EVER. No race shop, nor race team/race crew chief would ever attemp this route.

My suggestion: go back to stock springs. Dont change anything else either. PM some fast ZL1 owners who run R7/G3R. Get first hand feedback. Run G3Rs on your 19s and see what happens first and foremost. Maybe post your 19 details re offsets and seek advice on their specific set up (as offsets can change balance) from folks that already run them. Is the car's balance the same as stock? More under or more over steery? How's the tire wear. Etc. Then test it yourself first before making any changes. What's understeery for one driver can be perfect for another and yield even faster laptimes. The reverse is true as well: a looser car will make some drivers faster, while others slower. Skill level, driving style all matter here. Ultimately, only you can decide what is faster for you. Even in a pro world, 2 drivers may prefer different set ups and if they happen to share a car, they settle on a compromise.

This forum is fantastic as folks share their knowledge and experiences freely. Use it to your advantage.

Trackclub out Cheers!

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Yes, I am aware of that also. Many tires are cheater these days with their unrealistic TW ratings (RE71RS, Cup2s and now the G3Rs)


I personally wouldn't mess with springs given the MRCs programming that are designed for those spring rates and overall suspension geometry. Sway bars on the other hand, don't really have any penalty and only work when you turn, eliminate the body roll caused by the extra grip from more agressive tires. ..it doesn't negativity affect the ride quality for street use too.

One advantage of the stiffer spring / softer sway route (similar to ZLE) might be when there's multiple turns that require you to hit the bumps it may better absorb them, other than that for big sweepers where sustained g is higher and car tends lean on one side, stiff swaybars would keep the car flat.. better for turn in too (stiffer sway up front). No effect on nose dive, braking etc like the springs.. to eliminate all that we'd need stiffer springs.

I personally like both high spring rates and stiff swaybars on all the other cars but don't want to go coilovers route unless I have to. Here's hoping the sway bars will be beneficial and will take care of that body roll with more aggressive tires and give more confidence..

Thanks for your feedback Cem, yes I’ve read than the ZLE has softer sway bars than the SSLE and ZL1 because of those stiff springs as I believe the Z28 did too.

I guess I’ll find out one way or another what impact changing the tires and spring has on the track! It’s fun to experiment and makes changes, that’s part of the reason for owning a car and tracking in the first place right

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

No disrespect, but your second paragraph makes zero sense, as stiffer springs are neither required for running softer rubber, nor should they be used as a first choice for eliminating body roll.

Read the first long paragraph that describes the reason for these springs. By no means they were "intended" for racing, or track use as their primary design point. Their own words specify "occasional track use". Note there is no promise of faster laptimes, nor any comparison in laptimes before and after. Just 3 Camaro owner dudes who did the testing. Who or what they are we have no idea. I dont know any of them. Now if say Ron Fellows said his pace increased at Mosport, then i would be all over those springs. I support and respect anyone trying to make a buck, but choose wisely and re-read the design purpose carefully without jumping to conclusions which are not specified. More importantly, note, there is no mention of a ZL1, which has different MRC calibration, amongs other suspension differences vs SS.

I agree (obviously) with Cem's comments to your last post. Something ive said here a few times now (with no impact it seems - but i keep trying ). Have you drawn any conclusions from the comments by a Technical Director of a famous Indycar team?

I support Cem's comments about a firmer F sway bar, but that's his personal preference and a vast majority of folks that run DOT and full slicks run stock suspensions.
Why not check the fastest laps and PM some of them to get first hand feedback? Plenty of folks with ZL1s running R7/G3R to share their bone fide experiences with you.
Not to mention Provoste's own experience, which he posted here for ya. Note he didnt mention a need for any changes to his stock SS. To the contrary, he was elated how soon he could get on throttle. But maybe PM him for extra info. At least you know exactly whom you're dealing with (one of top drivers on this forum).

Lastly, be aware of this: stiffer means less mechanical grip (ref that vid I posted to validate this fact). This goes for springs as well as sway bars. While stiffer F bar will load the outside F tire faster (and make the initial transition quicker as a result), if you are not very precise with your driving, the car will understeer MORE and hence defeat your quest for faster laps.

Given your relative lack of feel for the car (at this stage of your development), which often results in massive corner entry understeer (and general overdriving while leaning hard on Stabilitrack which is masking your errors and saving your ass), a stiffer F bar would be completely unproductive and make things worse vs better. Both for your laptimes as well as tire wear. At this stage anyway.

I respect what you are trying to accomplish, but without a single lap on G3R (or any other stickier tire), trying to set up a car for better performance without having ANY baseline is not a right strategy EVER. No race shop, nor race team/race crew chief would ever attemp this route.

My suggestion: go back to stock springs. Dont change anything else either. PM some fast ZL1 owners who run R7/G3R. Get first hand feedback. Run G3Rs on your 19s and see what happens first and foremost. Maybe post your 19 details re offsets and seek advice on their specific set up (as offsets can change balance) from folks that already run them. Is the car's balance the same as stock? More under or more over steery? How's the tire wear. Etc. Then test it yourself first before making any changes. What's understeery for one driver can be perfect for another and yield even faster laptimes. The reverse is true as well: a looser car will make some drivers faster, while others slower. Skill level, driving style all matter here. Ultimately, only you can decide what is faster for you. Even in a pro world, 2 drivers may prefer different set ups and if they happen to share a car, they settle on a compromise.

This forum is fantastic as folks share their knowledge and experiences freely. Use it to your advantage.

Trackclub out Cheers!

Haha no offence taken, yes you can keep trying to deter me, why stop now?

However I’m not sure why you’d say that springs have no impact on body roll, obviously sway bars help in the regard too, but when looking at the ZLE, I believe the sway bars on this car are softer than the ZL1 and 1LE (at least that’s what I read on this forum haha) because it has stiffer spring/shocks.
I believe the same was said of the Z28, that the sway bars should be used to fine tune the car, as opposed to being the component that keeps the car level during cornering.

Lastly, yes I am aware that the springs were not purely designed for the track, but they are the most track orientated spring out there for our cars that I am aware of, every other spring has a lower spring rate than the stock ones as far as I am aware.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

However I’m not sure why you’d say that springs have no impact on body roll

All I saw TC post was that springs would not be the first place he'd turn to for reducing roll. Wouldn't be mine, either.

Of course firmer springs will reduce roll. But they aren't nearly as effective at reducing roll as sta-bars can be.

There's probably an optimum range of spring vs bar here, which is kind of a fuzzy concept to begin with. There are several schools of thought, ranging from Big Bar Soft Springs to Stiff Springs Soft Bars.

There are some engineering/mathematical approaches you can take, if you like that sort of thing. They won't give you final answers (you still have to drive it to either prove you were on the right track or find out that you weren't), but it's a bit better than guessing and throwing money, parts, and a lot of hope at the car.


Norm

[glamcem]

I think we talked about the sway bars in the past and I gave the below link but I might be wrong.

Let me repeat, for track/race use stiffer sway bars are never a bad thing if you go very stiff, the street ride may be harsh for someone when one wheel goes over a bump but only slightly..etc but still not as much as the stiffer springs or a coilover. The reason why ZLE feels a bit firmer for street use even with the softer sways than our cars. Also that firmness is always there regardless of if one wheel or two wheels go over the same bump.

Since we are adding considerably wider and more aggressive tires (and of course grip to the car), it would be ideal to get the last bit of grip for roll (in my case I will be adding 30% rate to both front and rear and am not worried about it all and that's nothing compared to my Miata when I increased the both front and rear roll bar rate by 3-5 times and with Ohlins with 11k/5k swift springs along with full under body braces and strut tower braces.. performance only got better each time I made it stiffer ) .

That being said, some drivers can easily adopt the softer setups and use the lean on the shoulder of the tires (due to softness) to their advantage too. It's a different driving style and requires some experience too which I lack I personally like the stiff/flatter car and at the track because it gives me more confidence when weight transfer is quicker and car's suspension is more direct/responsive to steering inputs.. I never felt like the sway bars caused too much stiffness that may upset the car or resulted in poor performance. I didn't use street tires as much either though.

Anti-roll bars are often characterized as a necessary evil. Racers know you need them to restrict roll, but many suggest the interconnection between wheels on the same axle causes “bad things” to happen.
Proponents of this view say things like “the suspension ceases to be truly independent”. On the surface, this might appear to make sense.

The reality is very different. The interconnection between wheels on the same axle has a negligible effect for racing and high performance.

Take a look at this article, it's a good read and explains the common misconceptions about the roll bars in more detail :
https://www.suspensionsetup.info/blo...or-a-bad-thing

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Haha no offence taken, yes you can keep trying to deter me, why stop now?

However I’m not sure why you’d say that springs have no impact on body roll, obviously sway bars help in the regard too, but when looking at the ZLE, I believe the sway bars on this car are softer than the ZL1 and 1LE (at least that’s what I read on this forum haha) because it has stiffer spring/shocks.
I believe the same was said of the Z28, that the sway bars should be used to fine tune the car, as opposed to being the component that keeps the car level during cornering.

Lastly, yes I am aware that the springs were not purely designed for the track, but they are the most track orientated spring out there for our cars that I am aware of, every other spring has a lower spring rate than the stock ones as far as I am aware.

Good to hear, so i will continue trying

You are asking a very good question. Id suggest you listen to that vid again, as it explains it fully.

Not surprised ZLE has stiffer springs (and shocks to go with them) as it has pretty serious aero. The more aero the stiffer the springs to control the extra load on the suspension (our cars dont have this requirement). GM likely used softer sway bars to then dial out excessive understeer and make it well balanced. Indeed the sway can be used as a final tuning tool, but it is also most often used as a first tuning tool. As the name says: sway bars, or more accurately *anti-roll bars* do just that. So their PRIMARY function is to either decrease, or increase the roll. Then the latter, as a consequence, changes the speed with which the tires are loaded and influence under/oversteer. Adding more bar at the front will introduce less grip in the front, hence add understeer to the overall balance. Adding more bar in the rear will decrease grip there, hence add oversteer to the overall balance. Decreasing front bar will increase grip in the front and add oversteer to overall balance. Lastly: decreasing rear bar will increase rear grip and add understeer to overall balance.

On the springs, yes they do influence the roll, but that's not their primary function (see vid again). Best track springs for your ZL1 are stock ones for the reasons stated already. Picking an aftermarket spring only because "it is the best of the rest available out there" doesnt mean you will get any gains out of it. Not only are they not "track oriented" and folks have reported slower laptimes on them, but these were engineered for an SS not for a ZL1. Ive made this comment earlier, i guess you missed it.

Now to be factual, they are not the only spring out there. Maybe the only cheap spring out there. I know for a fact a pro shop which built a gen6 Camaro race car used Penske suspension. The car was for sale a while back. I think they wanted about 120+k if my memory serves me right.

I know you are searching for every possible angle and trick to gain pace NOW! Frankly i had been there myself so i can relate And having a very fast car adds extra pressure to perform. Again, i know the feeling myself having had a heavily modded, supercharged Stang back in a day. Let me assure you, there is no substitute for driver skill. Just like spending time in pro shops searching for this magical set of clubs vs at the range practicing: it is a waste of time and money (ask any pro how many hrs a day they *study* and *practice* skill). The only difference in motorsports is that if one pushes beyond their skill: they wreck. Of course many often blame the car for that. Much more convinient on many levels, ego included

Have fun and be safe. Cheers!