[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I find it funny since I own both a Tesla Model 3 and a Camaro ZL1. When I am on the Telsa forums if I bring up ICE (especially a supercharged Camaro) I feel like they want to jump through the screen and murder me.

When I am on the Camaro forum and touch on EV driving experiences comparison, etc. it will ignite a lot of emotion.

Personally, I see the benefits of both and own both. Right now, there are no "affordable" EV drivers cars. The Model 3 is quick and handles like a BMW but as other have mentioned it lacks a drivers cockpit or any sort of visceral feel that you get from a performance ICE vehicle but it is a sedan that was built for the masses so they can sell a bunch of them. Eventually, we will see EV performance cars for enthusiast like us, probably from Dodge first in the 2024/2025 timeframe. They will built something that has the styling we like and it will go like a bat out of hell and probably let you pick from a number of exhaust notes and blast it through an 18 speaker Harmon Kardon sound system.

My guess is that GM eventually will build something like the discontinued SS sedan in EV form. Probably in multiple trims to hit the right price points and appeal to a wider range of customers. I envision a 4-door sedan with dual motors, 400 mile range, Magride tech, multiple large screens, Brembos, etc. It will probably accelerate like crazy but unless they implement some sort of 2-speed transmission, relax the nannies and allow you to send all the torque to the rear wheels it will drive similar to a Tesla. GM will also need to implement drive modes including a track mode if they want anyone to really drive the car. Anyway, interesting times ahead.

ICEs have sure put up a good fight and the idea that you can buy some of the most powerful ICE vehicles only to have them be embarrassed by a "mid-level" EV is all the proof I need.

And when I see the knuckle-draggers that engage in childish behavior like blocking EV charging stations it only reinforces my belief that some people are the lost children of Darwin. Life is about progressing to that next level, and some people will just cling to their backwards thinking to their grave. I'm personally ok with change as it can bring about growth. It's the same type of growth that Chevy's small block V8 has seen with its growth in HP. Hell even the team behind the new Corvette evolved it into a mid-engine monster. It's sad that the mid-engine didn't have more time to flourish as I would've loved to see a mid-engine ZR-1, but the tide of change doesn't recognize nostalgia nor sentiment, it just rushes over everything. You can try to stop it, but history has shown us otherwise. Maybe not everyone is familiar with the tale of John Henry?

[Hops]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

ICEs have sure put up a good fight and the idea that you can buy some of the most powerful ICE vehicles only to have them be embarrassed by a "mid-level" EV is all the proof I need.

And when I see the knuckle-draggers that engage in childish behavior like blocking EV charging stations it only reinforces my belief that some people are the lost children of Darwin. Life is about progressing to that next level, and some people will just cling to their backwards thinking to their grave. I'm personally ok with change as it can bring about growth. It's the same type of growth that Chevy's small block V8 has seen with its growth in HP. Hell even the team behind the new Corvette evolved it into a mid-engine monster. It's sad that the mid-engine didn't have more time to flourish as I would've loved to see a mid-engine ZR-1, but the tide of change doesn't recognize nostalgia nor sentiment, it just rushes over everything. You can try to stop it, but history has shown us otherwise. Maybe not everyone is familiar with the tale of John Henry?

How is propelling a car with electric motors higher tech? If anything cars are returning to their electric origins. I suppose one could say technology is in the li ion batteries developed in the 90's, and more chemistries are on the way, or new materials are being used for the anodes. But, there's differing levels of tech in cars irrespective of how their powered.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by Hops

How is propelling a car with electric motors higher tech? If anything cars are returning to their electric origins. I suppose one could say technology is in the li ion batteries developed in the 90's, and more chemistries are on the way, or new materials are being used for the anodes. But, there's differing levels of tech in cars irrespective of how their powered.

Progress doesn't necessarily mean "higher tech", but as you pointed out batteries are evolving and progressing. If EV was just a fad, I suspect that all major car manufacturers wouldn't be getting into them. Hell, I remember when GM had the EV1 but only put it out there as a technological showcase. Given that we're already seeing companies shift manufacturing to EVs and ICE vehicles are slowly being phased out, these large companies don't just change on a whim. Customer demand is there and will only get larger, especially once more infrastructure is put in place.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

I think it's funny how you can use state of the art computers and programs for over 20 years in business, spend decades helping people and businesses make their homes and buildings more energy efficient, build state of the art computers to game on, have state of the art home theaters you setup yourself over the years, have done little things like tune EFI before hardly any shops had a clue how to, solder LEDs into the dash of an old Mustang, etc., etc. But you're just a knuckle dragger who's against change and impeding progress somehow because you like your car to rumble.

And I like how some people try to make strawman arguments to defend a position Also yes, I do stand by my statement that if you have ever been involved in "ICE-ing" (blocking charging stations for no other reason than to be a ****) then drag away at those knuckles....

[Hops]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

And I like how some people try to make strawman arguments to defend a position Also yes, I do stand by my statement that if you have ever been involved in "ICE-ing" (blocking charging stations for no other reason than to be a ****) then drag away at those knuckles....

how is that even a 'straw man'?, and what do even think is being argued here, it's a damn Camaro forum? People are trying to share their passions for the car. And when you have passions for a car or motorsports, it very much exists independent of the 'straw man' you've created about acceptance of technology.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

I think it's funny how you can use state of the art computers and programs for over 20 years in business, spend decades helping people and businesses make their homes and buildings more energy efficient, build state of the art computers to game on, have state of the art home theaters you setup yourself over the years, have done little things like tune EFI before hardly any shops had a clue how to, solder LEDs into the dash of an old Mustang, etc., etc. But you're just a knuckle dragger who's against change and impeding progress somehow because you like your car to rumble.

+1

As others mentioned already, if EVs were developed and offered as another alternative, nobody would bat an eye, and if it's better, it would win anyway.

The reason people resist is they are forced down everyone's throats mafia style ("sure, have at it, but your fleet has to have 56+ mpg on average, which btw is an arbitrary number we pulled out of our backsides to make ICE unviable"). Some people like freedom and choice, you know. Again, if it's better, it would win anyway as the market sorts things out, but calling a government mandated technology that is older than ICE "progressive" is interesting.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by Hops

how is that even a 'straw man'?, and what do even think is being argued here, it's a damn Camaro forum? People are trying to share their passions for the car. And when you have passions for a car or motorsports, it very much exists independent of the 'straw man' you've created about acceptance of technology.

Your argument is that you work with technology and that somehow I've called you a knuckle dragger, but if you read my post completely I call the people that are actively antagonizing adopters of EV as knuckle draggers. Thus, you're creating a narrative that I think everyone that drives a gas guzzler must be dragging their knuckles. Which I hate to disappoint you, but what I consider my primary vehicle is actually a fossil fuel devouring 17 MPG "pseudo-relic".

The EV that I'm currently driving (or any EV for that matter) will never provide me with the visceral and primal feeling that my current and future ICE will give me. But as I've stated numerous times already, times they are a changing. Hell, I can only imagine what this place will be like if/when EV Camaros are a thing. Maybe we should go look at a Mustang forum for a sign of things to possibly come here.


And yes, I still laugh at how some people are trying to die on this hill. I guess everyone has to have a cause.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

ICEs have sure put up a good fight and the idea that you can buy some of the most powerful ICE vehicles only to have them be embarrassed by a "mid-level" EV is all the proof I need.

And when I see the knuckle-draggers that engage in childish behavior like blocking EV charging stations it only reinforces my belief that some people are the lost children of Darwin. Life is about progressing to that next level, and some people will just cling to their backwards thinking to their grave. I'm personally ok with change as it can bring about growth. It's the same type of growth that Chevy's small block V8 has seen with its growth in HP. Hell even the team behind the new Corvette evolved it into a mid-engine monster. It's sad that the mid-engine didn't have more time to flourish as I would've loved to see a mid-engine ZR-1, but the tide of change doesn't recognize nostalgia nor sentiment, it just rushes over everything. You can try to stop it, but history has shown us otherwise. Maybe not everyone is familiar with the tale of John Henry?

Can you please elaborate what you mean by mid-level EV's?

I can only think of a few EV's that can 'embarrass' an ICE V8 and they are not affordable to the masses where comparatively you can get an ICE V8 for much less.

EV's such as the Nissan Leaf, Chevrolet Bolt, Hyundai Ioniq, ect at their max put out between the 190 to 230 HP range. Those vehicles are costing between $25k - $35k range. A comparable ICE in that price range typically has just as much (if not more) power and ALSO has more fuel range. Even a 4 Cyl Turbo or V6 Camaro can make quick work of those let alone a V8 SS.

EV's such as the Tesla Model 3 BASE comes with a base cost of $44k MSRP and does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds, comparably a Camaro SS has a base cost of $37k AND runs that 0-60 in 4 seconds flat, is built for track use with multiple radiators, a large oil capacity, a more powerful suspension and a warranty that even covers track use.... The SS is besting the car that base for base by over a full second 0-60, what is even funnier is the SS actually has more fuel range as well. This Tesla would have a close race with a stock V6 Camaro, not much else though.

EV's such as the Tesla Model 3 PERFORMANCE is where things get quick, with a 0-60 of 3.1 seconds which is heavily respectable, but its not a bargain mid-level car by any means... It is knocking on the door of $60k unconfigured.. ..know another car that is similar in price range? A 1LT C8 Coupe (not barring Pandemic related price surges and lack of inventory) which does 0-60 in 2.8 seconds and is pretty comparable in base unconfigured MSRP, although it probably has a higher ceiling.

There are faster EV's, yes - but they are not obtainable to the average bread winner.

Also keep in mind that Tesla still has not fully solved the battery heat issue which both:

-- Causes EV's 1/4th mile times to be inconsistent and slower after each pass after about 3 passes.
-- Causes EV's to take substantially longer to charge after reaching approximately 80% charge.

Also - In colder climates, EV's significantly lose drivability range and their charging time increases. ICE vehicles are impacted by cold weather as well but not as significantly as EV's are. This is a big issue for people who live in northern states.

That and also people who do not have the ability to put their car in the garage are heavily inconvenienced by the charging factor and there are alot of Americans in this category.

EV's are not for everyone and I'm sorry but you are inaccurate in assuming that EV's are besting ICE vehicles in dollar per dollar value, ICE vehicles are still beating EV's by a fair margin in this category and its a BIG reason as to why many "knuckle draggers" are not being so quick to jump on the bandwagon. I personally respect people who use their head, not the hype.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Can you please elaborate what you mean by mid-level EV's?

I can only think of a few EV's that can 'embarrass' an ICE V8 and they are not affordable to the masses where comparatively you can get an ICE V8 for much less.

EV's such as the Nissan Leaf, Chevrolet Bolt, Hyundai Ioniq, ect at their max put out between the 190 to 230 HP range. Those vehicles are costing between $25k - $35k range. A comparable ICE in that price range typically has just as much (if not more) power and ALSO has more fuel range. Even a 4 Cyl Turbo or V6 Camaro can make quick work of those let alone a V8 SS.

EV's such as the Tesla Model 3 BASE comes with a base cost of $44k MSRP and does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds, comparably a Camaro SS has a base cost of $37k AND runs that 0-60 in 4 seconds flat, is built for track use with multiple radiators, a large oil capacity, a more powerful suspension and a warranty that even covers track use.... The SS is besting the car that base for base by over a full second 0-60, what is even funnier is the SS actually has more fuel range as well. This Tesla would have a close race with a stock V6 Camaro, not much else though.

EV's such as the Tesla Model 3 PERFORMANCE is where things get quick, with a 0-60 of 3.1 seconds which is heavily respectable, but its not a bargain mid-level car by any means... It is knocking on the door of $60k unconfigured.. ..know another car that is similar in price range? A 1LT C8 Coupe (not barring Pandemic related price surges and lack of inventory) which does 0-60 in 2.8 seconds and is pretty comparable in base unconfigured MSRP, although it probably has a higher ceiling.

There are faster EV's, yes - but they are not obtainable to the average bread winner.

Also keep in mind that Tesla still has not fully solved the battery heat issue which both:

-- Causes EV's 1/4th mile times to be inconsistent and slower after each pass after about 3 passes.
-- Causes EV's to take substantially longer to charge after reaching approximately 80% charge.

Also - In colder climates, EV's significantly lose drivability range and their charging time increases. ICE vehicles are impacted by cold weather as well but not as significantly as EV's are. This is a big issue for people who live in northern states.

That and also people who do not have the ability to put their car in the garage are heavily inconvenienced by the charging factor and there are alot of Americans in this category.

EV's are not for everyone and I'm sorry but you are inaccurate in assuming that EV's are besting ICE vehicles in dollar per dollar value, ICE vehicles are still beating EV's by a fair margin in this category and its a BIG reason as to why many "knuckle draggers" are not being so quick to jump on the bandwagon. I personally respect people who use their head, not the hype.

Well said. As an owner of both, so far the only two things I see that would excite a current Camaro owner is the instant acceleration and the potential fuel savings. Just about everything else in the Tesla is a letdown for a performance enthusiast. There is very little character without the sound, the gear shifts, the tight suspension setup, the styling, the traditional modulation of braking vs. the regen braking of an EV.

- Power significantly drops off after 60mph since there is no gearing. 0-60mph may be 3.1 sec but 0-100mph is 8.2 sec where a ZL1 or C8 Stingray is a .5 - 1 second faster to 100mph. Once both cars are moving at highway speed the Camaro will pull pretty hard on a Model 3.

- Once you throw the Tesla into a corner it is game over as the SS get around the track quicker.
- No mag ride suspension
- No drive modes
- No way to turn off the nannies, which limits all the playfulness of the torque
- Basic seats with limited bolstering
- No HUD or inspiring cockpit, no gauges, no interior lighting
- Lacks driving engagement, no manual or paddle shifting
- Limited aftermarket support
- Limited ability to mod
- Reduced performance as the battery state of charge drops. The difference between 90% SOC and 40% is like 64 horsepower in a Tesla Model 3, which reduces its times by about .5 sec.
- Tough to track without a supercharger nearby.

The Model S Plaid is a different beast and has a flat power curve to insane speeds but that car uses 3 motors and costs $130k. Maybe when the Plaid motor tech trickles down to the 50-60k range but again it is just 0-60mph/0-100mph sprints and then the party is over. There is so much more to a performance car and I think that is going to be the biggest hurdle for when it comes to converting ICE enthusiasts to EVs.

[m6z]

I guess government mandated is progressive..

So is it official, the six gen dies in 2023?

[Hops]

Originally Posted by m6z

I guess government mandated is progressive..

So is it official, the six gen dies in 2023?

I don’t think anything is official, but the consensus is 2023/2024

[Need4Camaro]

Im going to miss this era. truly was the pinnacle of the automobile era. Its been fun.

[Number 3]

To quote GM, "we do not comment of future product programs".

No, it is not official. I'm kind of chuckling reading through this thread again. OP said "rumors". LOL there are no rumors, just our speculation.

And we need to keep in mind, the EV discussion, for me anyway, is simply the hope that the Camaro continues and NOT as an SUV. GM even announced this week that their HD pickups had been moved up in their timing. GM as an EV company is going to happen. Holding out that GM would somehow make a Gen7 Camaro that isn't an EV is just hope and nothing more.

The Camaro has a shot to continue, but only as long as the Cadillac Alphas stay in production. When GM announces the CT4/5 move to an EV platform the Camaro now become no more viable than it was in 2001. It will be a low volume orphan on a high cost platform. So as much as many are showing true hate for EVs (not sure why it comes across as hate, dislike I can see but hey, that's the internet today) it's coming.

I'm pretty sure i've posted it, but with the onslaught of EVs coming, it's only going to get "worse". The development costs for an EV are MUCH smaller than an ICE. That's why startups are popping up everywhere from LMTD Vans and other cars and SUVs. The cost to tool up, develop and calibrate an ICE and transmission AND meet the emissions standards can run you up to a BILLION $ or more. A start up could never pay that back. Now simply sourcing a battery and a electric motor???? No tooling and much lower cost to calibrate (still a ton of calibration by the way which is why GM is hiring Computer Engineering and Computer Science Majors like crazy. So is my company so if interested PM me). 5 years from now the market will look wildly different. And for GM? If the market is going to have so many EV choices, well better get on board and make the best EVs possible. The market is driving this guys. As much as you want to be evil government (California excluded as CARB is now trying to figure out how to stay funded in a world of EVs) it is now market driven. At one point it was California. Their CARB Credit system alone made Tesla a Trillion $ company but now they are actually making money selling cars. Go figure.

Also you need to understand that ICE development is at the end of the road. To meet increasing FE and Emissions standards (same thing now as CO is directly related to fuel burned) it is costing HUGE amounts of money for incremental improvements. For example, go look at the indexing cam system on the GM 2.0 and 2.7L L4 Turbos. Huge cost for at best .25 mpg (or so i've heard). Hyundai/Kia (same company for those that didn't know) just shut down future ICE development.

But everyday big and small companies are going to work every day to fix every problem people keep listing for EVs. Today those issues are real. Apartment dwellers, city folk and country folk today have charging issues. But GM just announced with the new Silverado EV you can charge to 100 miles in 10 minutes. Porsche system is 80% in 15 minutes. And the cost and availability of those will come down with scale, further investment and continued development. Did you see the Michigan company that put their battery in a Tesla Model S and drove to the Mackinac Bridge and back last week? 750 miles on a single charge using the same size battery as Tesla. Now halve the size and weight of that battery and you have 375 miles range and a much lighter car. Wild stuff coming.

It ONLY comes down to NVH and manual shifting. And manually shifting is also dying. Look at the Corvette. They picked the best solution and abandoned both autos and manual manuals. If you don't believe it, you haven't driven a DCT. But the engagement factor changes for sure. But driver engagement is so much more than NVH and having to use your right arm and left leg to drive. Now credit to Honda for having a manual in the new Civic. Even as Honda moves to EVs (first ones using GM platform) they still recognize the enthusiast and historic Civic customer, so hats off to Honda on that one.

As an engineer and leader in the industry (sorry according to one person I am stroking my ego when I say things like that) I'm excited to see where we are in 5 and 10 years. Yes, I'm working on EVs and ADS products. School buses for example are THE perfect use case for EVs. Go drive 20 miles, come back to base and charge, go drive another 20 miles and come back and charge overnight. Ultimately you will probably be hard pressed to find an ICE school bus.

I get the passion on both sides of this. We just need to step back and appreciate each other views more but we also have to accept reality. A future Camaros best chance is as an EV. So what does that look like?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by m6z

I guess government mandated is progressive..

So is it official, the six gen dies in 2023?

Definitely not government mandated. Companies are declaring their intent to go mostly or totally electric long before mandated by CARB or anybody else. Most of these declarations were made when Trump was president and both houses under Republican control.

Originally Posted by Hops

I don’t think anything is official, but the consensus is 2023/2024

Number 3 has already covered this in this thread, but I will reiterate and add one more piece of information. Camaro is built on the same platform, in the same plant as CT4/CT5. Cadillac has already said they are going all electric. When Cadillac stops making ICE versions of those cars, Camaro also goes away.

Now the new information… in December the Detroit Free Press reported “ GM is eyeing the Lansing area for a new battery plant, based on city records, a statement from the mayor, and a source familiar with company plans who did not wish to be identified.”

Why would GM build a battery plant in or near Lansing? To support production of an electric vehicle factory in or near Lansing. There are two GM vehicle plants in the Lansing area. Grand River (Cadillacs and Camaros) and Delta Township (CUVs). One battery plant could support both, as well as nearby Orion Township which already produces Bolt and Bolt EUV.