[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

The tvs supercharger rotor coating does not really like methanol. It will eventually erode the coating. If you are overdriving the supercharger and getting it really hot then the methanol seems to eat the coating faster. This is from first hand experience on my ZL1.

Everyone I know that advocates the use of Methanol says tune the car to run on the gas in the tank and then spray the Meth on top of it for cooling and a buffer against knock and the negative effects of knock. Since this LT1 motor came out in the C7 and the aftermarket is trying to build powerful motors a lot of tuners are going down the methanol path to get horsepower you just cannot make when you have 11.5 to 1 compression ratio and boost. I'm just going to throw this out there but I don't think anyone can possibly make 750 or more whp on just pump gasoline on a stock LT1 motor. To run this kind of compression and boost you only have a few options. High octane race gas, alcohol fuel (E85) or spray a bunch of methanol and tune the car to use methanol as a fuel to compensate for the octane deficiency. I'm seeing more and more of this kind of methanol use and it was a big temptation on my turbo car to spray a load of meth so I could run more boost.

To be honest I'm considering buying a LT4 crate motor from Jegs mainly for the lower compression 10 to 1 pistons. The plus is then I have all of the mechanical fuel Pump and injector upgrades as part of the package and no engine disassembly at all. Anyone interested in buying a slightly used LT1 with only 6000 miles on it and a never been used LT4 supercharger?

I've read this a few times, the coating coming off, and the consensus was that it wasn't a big deal. Did you experience other wise? Mainly Vette guys I saw doing it commented that the coating coming off didn't affect anything for them so curious what your experience was?

I built my Challenger's motor to 9:1 compression. Knowing what I know now, I would have gone a bit more on compression (10.5:1) and run less boost. I calculated I'd make the same power on less boost, meaning cooler IATs and a happier setup. 11.5:1 is getting up there, but do you think it's that big a deal to just run a bit less boost? Making 560 on 7psi seems pretty good to me. I'm waiting for some of the track folks to bump it to 9 or 10psi on 109 race gas and see how it goes. Had a buddy run 10psi on his stock R/T Challenger and everyone said he'd blow it up. He only ran that at the track on Sunoco 110 and 3 years later he was still going strong. He eventually had a a built motor put in, had all kinds of issues, and sold the car wishing he'd left it a lone LOL.

Originally Posted by Atomic Ed

Speedy, I looked at that pump, but we're talking 5-6 years ago when I fooled around with it. Hopefully they have improved over time.

Thanks, fingers crossed they fixed whatever the problem was.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I've read this a few times, the coating coming off, and the consensus was that it wasn't a big deal. Did you experience other wise? Mainly Vette guys I saw doing it commented that the coating coming off didn't affect anything for them so curious what your experience was?

I built my Challenger's motor to 9:1 compression. Knowing what I know now, I would have gone a bit more on compression (10.5:1) and run less boost. I calculated I'd make the same power on less boost, meaning cooler IATs and a happier setup. 11.5:1 is getting up there, but do you think it's that big a deal to just run a bit less boost? Making 560 on 7psi seems pretty good to me. I'm waiting for some of the track folks to bump it to 9 or 10psi on 109 race gas and see how it goes. Had a buddy run 10psi on his stock R/T Challenger and everyone said he'd blow it up. He only ran that at the track on Sunoco 110 and 3 years later he was still going strong. He eventually had a a built motor put in, had all kinds of issues, and sold the car wishing he'd left it a lone LOL.



Thanks, fingers crossed they fixed whatever the problem was.

I could feel no change in performance even though probably 2/3 of my rotor coating was gone. But I was running compound boost with turbos pressurizing the intake tube before the supercharger. So not exactly the same as just supercharger performance, my supercharger was just jump starting the turbos so I didn't have as much lag. Turbos were pushing most of my boost.

I also only ran that configuration with the heartbeat and methanol for a few hundred miles. I really don't know how it would play out long term. I personally don't think I would spray methanol into a PD supercharger again, the supercharger coating is there for a reason. I'm sure if you talked to Maggie of Eaton engineers they could give all of the exact information but I really don't know.

Regarding the compression ratio, there is a lot of variation available between ignition advance, compression ratio and the fuels inherent detonation resistance. There are a few basic principles that come into play. All of these are relative however....
1. The more you compress the air fuel mixture the faster the spark will pass from molecule to molecule and the more power can be made. This works right up to the point of detonation. Once you get to a point of detonation it is all lost. So ideally the closer you can compress the air/fuel mixture to the point of detonation without actually crossing the line the more fuel efficient and powerful the engine will be. The LT1 motor is optimized for no boost and really is incredibly efficient and powerful because it is already pretty close to the limit. The tolerances are so tight that you can really only add 5 to 7 pounds of boost to a stock motor before you have to take away some of the efficiency.

2. Spark advance/retard is one way to modulate compression and the tune of the engine is adjusting this constantly. The problem is there is a range of effectiveness. All of this varies with engine rpm but lets just say for peak power at high rpm, If your spark is being retarded honestly less than 15 degrees before tdc you are losing the most efficient push on the piston. You will still make power but not as efficiently. To keep stuffing boost into this LT1 engine without adding some fuel to resist knock (E85, meth, race gas) the timing will quickly move out of max efficiency range due to high compression ratio.

Because of the compression ratio, this engine is going to LOVE E85 and race gas. If you have a separate tune that allows more advance the power gains will be major. But us bums that want to run pump gas are going to be kind of limited with this motor. On premium pump gas I think 550-575 whp is the sweet spot on this 11.5 to 1 motor. You can push more air and fuel into it but the efficiency is going to drop if you are not using a stabilizing fuel.

On your challenger 9:1 is on the other extreme, you could easily make 1000 whp on pump gas with that ratio if you can get the air and fuel into the engine. You could run all the spark advance you wanted with no detonation.

[Mighunter]

Originally Posted by 1LE801

Dropping off for Round 1 of Mods. JDP Motorsports will be installing a CAI Intake, VMax TB, Maggie HB, Alky Control Methanol Injection, ATI Damper w/10% pulley, Kooks LT's w/cats and an Elite PCV system. We'll be installing a set of Weld RTS wheels with drag radials in back and skinnies up front.

So, the millions dollar questionS:

1. What's my WHP going to be?
2. What will I run here at 4500 ft in the 1/4? My best was 13.062 at 108.95 in stock form with 1LE replicas and 305 F1s on back.

Closest one gets a treat lol. I'll be running it here locally almost immediately after picking it up.

Let's hear it, guys and gals......

Wow, BTW, what is your bank account number again?

[Speedy1975]

Good stuff jessrayo and I understand what you're saying.

Personally, I would ALWAYS recommend running race fuel at the track, tuned for it or not. It's just cheap insurance when beating on a car. I get Renegade 109 unleaded locally. Pricey at $80 for 5 gallons, but worth it to me. My street tune has about 16-17° of timing in it for 93 octane. On the 109 we bump that to 21° and it does make a big difference in power and how it's delivered.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

Good stuff jessrayo and I understand what you're saying.

Personally, I would ALWAYS recommend running race fuel at the track, tuned for it or not. It's just cheap insurance when beating on a car.

I agree, always smarter to have extra octane when running the car hard.

[JaxChris]

jessrayo, you touched on something I've been curious about.

- Why would GM not include flex fuel (sensor and tables) for such a modern DI motor like the LT1?
- Know of anyone that has successfully adapted and tuned for E85 on the 2016 SS yet?
- Switching to E85 would mean running out of fuel pump sooner than 93 octane when adding FI, correct?
- Would E85 help in any way to extend the power ceiling many have faced with the stock pistons (I think the consensus is 650whp)?

Thanks for any insights you have. Good luck with your build.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by JaxChris

jessrayo, you touched on something I've been curious about.

- Why would GM not include flex fuel (sensor and tables) for such a modern DI motor like the LT1?
- Know of anyone that has successfully adapted and tuned for E85 on the 2016 SS yet?
- Switching to E85 would mean running out of fuel pump sooner than 93 octane when adding FI, correct?
- Would E85 help in any way to extend the power ceiling many have faced with the stock pistons (I think the consensus is 650whp)?

Thanks for any insights you have. Good luck with your build.

-flex fuel - I have never heard anyone at GM officially talk about why they have not embraced the flex fuel sensors. I just know they have not.

- GirlyNFG says in post 3 on this link that he is tuned for E85. He has the most powerful dyno on stock bottom that I know of.. (has upgraded to LT4 mechanical pump). http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462746

- yes, if your car is tuned for E85 it will increase the workload on the fuel pump and fuel pump limitations will be reached much sooner. You just need to upgrade the fuel pumps to make the power.

- This is a really good question on the pistons. Some testing would have to be done to know for sure but my first thought is that you could probably make a little more power on the E85 without piston damage because combustion temperatures are lower with alcohol. Heat is usually a factor in most piston failures.

[Speedy1975]

I've become leery of E85. I've seen it gel and clog up fuel filters and fuel systems on two different cars. If that problem could be solved, or has been, it can be used as an inexpensive high octane fuel for sure.

[1LE801]

We are using the Alky kit and will be running 100% methanol. It's there for cooling, octane boost and cleaning. It will help with air fuel but Jordan doesn't tune the car to rely on it. In the event that I completely ignore the light that tells me it's low, the car will have the ability to pull timing enough to prevent damage. Pumps, well, they go bad from time to time. Shit happens.

JDP has got countless Methanol cars on the roads all over the country with almost no problems to report. Julio at Alky is amazing when things do come up also so that helps me feel good about their system.

I'll be sure to give good honest feedback on my personal experience when the time comes but with Jordan and JDPs track record and continued success, I'm confident this car will be a force.

I also think someone said something about 750 WHP. My goal is 750 Crank so about 600 WHP. This car is beating cars with much higher power already with just 305 F1s on the back so I'm pretty impressed with this cars ability to put the power down. I think the car can do more with Less. At least, that's been my experience so far.

[Speedy1975]

100% meth is flammable just in case you weren't aware, but then so is gasoline LOL

[1LE801]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I've become leery of E85. I've seen it gel and clog up fuel filters and fuel systems on two different cars. If that problem could be solved, or has been, it can be used as an inexpensive high octane fuel for sure.

I also have a great deal of comfort in knowing my car will run on pump gas. Like a monster too. So long as I run, Shell, Chevron or Texaco (in my area), I'll be good to go.

[1LE801]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

100% meth is flammable just in case you weren't aware, but then so is gasoline LOL

Yeah but if you have the tank, you have the tank. Using a good tank is a pretty solid measure. I have considered the smell too cause it's pretty fishy.

[1LE801]

Sorry for the delay. JDP stays pretty busy and we had a scheduling conflict. Car was dropped off today. I don't think I'll sleep until it's home. Stay tuned!

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by 1LE801

We are using the Alky kit and will be running 100% methanol. It's there for cooling, octane boost and cleaning. It will help with air fuel but Jordan doesn't tune the car to rely on it. In the event that I completely ignore the light that tells me it's low, the car will have the ability to pull timing enough to prevent damage. Pumps, well, they go bad from time to time. Shit happens.

JDP has got countless Methanol cars on the roads all over the country with almost no problems to report. Julio at Alky is amazing when things do come up also so that helps me feel good about their system.

I'll be sure to give good honest feedback on my personal experience when the time comes but with Jordan and JDPs track record and continued success, I'm confident this car will be a force.

I also think someone said something about 750 WHP. My goal is 750 Crank so about 600 WHP. This car is beating cars with much higher power already with just 305 F1s on the back so I'm pretty impressed with this cars ability to put the power down. I think the car can do more with Less. At least, that's been my experience so far.

I was about to ask why you were even bothering with E85 if your goal was 600whp, but then checked your math. 750 crank = 650 wheel (15% difference). I still think the better route would be to replace your fuel system with Z06's, get a smaller pulley and cam it, but it's also probably a lot more expensive up front. That would cost you about $3k in parts alone. I understand why people use E85 and there are lots of shops pushing it and doing it well, but it's not for me. If you really are only looking for 600rwhp and not 650, you should be able to hit that and leave yourself a safe buffer by just replacing your fuel pump and moving down one size pulley.

Edit - I just looked back and saw why you didn't use 15%...didn't read the entire thread.

I'm curious about what equipment JDP has that enables them to accurately determine how much fuel to deliver to your engine? I may be wrong, so please feel free to correct me, but my understanding of methanol is that no one in the aftermarket has ability to accurately measure this properly and they're all simply guessing based on what worked on prior cars.