[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

Your post peaked curiosity so I asked my complex manager about the subject of charging stations a few minutes ago. My complex is owned by a company that owns other complexes in St. Louis, Oklahoma City my city Dallas/Fort worth and San Antonio. She told me that the owner has considered it but with lack of support by local and state governments the bill would fall on the tenants with increased rent and when brought up it was an overwhelming no from various property tenants. So unless federal or the Auto companies themselves want to foot the bill the properties for the time being will not be EV friendly.



That was what I received in response. Apparently this happened shortly before I moved in to the complex.

From my apartment experience landlords do as little as possible lol. Then again I was in an older building.

But even my friends in nicer newer buildings in the city, you know where they park? On the street, sometimes blocks away if they have to.

Originally Posted by Number 3

It's easy to come up with reasons why it won't work today. And they are real. Buy then everyone claims it can't be fixed, when it can.

Today the technology exists to get 80% range in 15 minutes with the right charger. Now unless you are in a NASCAR pit crew, when I'm on a road trip a gas stop is 15 minutes to fill up, go inside and hit the restroom and get a soda or coffee or snack. If I can get 80% with a 300 mile range that is 240 miles between charges. My LaCrosse, with it's tiny tank, can probably get 300 miles between stops for gas. This isn't that big a deal.

And every day, people are working to improve this with battery and charging technologies.

As for rental and street charging? It's fixable but the demand isn't there. If apartments or rental properties start losing tenants for not having charging stations it will change. I have a friend who rented out the garage in his old apartment via an app on a per day basis. He got more money by having EV charging in that garage.

Also keep in mind there is a side purpose for EVs. They are farrrrrr superior for autonomous vehicles at L5. And for as much as everyone hates EVs for the lack of vibration and sound to enhance the driving experience, the hate for not having any controls is even higher here. Or should be, lol.

My problem with bringing up the problems of today, is at least in my own experience I see a lot of problems with the current electrical grid and don't see any improvements to it yet. The last major update I saw? They put a smart meter on the houses. Now granted I don't follow it as close as I do other things, but I just don't see the improvements being made that can sustain the rapid growth/push for EVs. I see the problems with the cars being rectified and improved but I don't see the improvements anywhere else yet.

On my normal commute to and from work, there is 3 charging stations that I know of. The community college has one on campus, neighbor at work down the street put one in and the local grocery store has one. I am sure there is more but on my direct routes that is all I know off. There is 5 gas stations between my office and the 4 miles between the highway. Once more charging stations appear I am sure that will ease concerns but I just don't see the supporting tech for the vehicles yet.

To me it's like Avatar james cameron had the script and screenplay ready but had to wait to make it for 15 years for technology to catch up so he could make it work. The tech in the cars is almost there, the supporting tech I don't see enough advancement there to match the push for EVs.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This necessarily assumes home ownership, either single-family or duplex/condo dwelling with off-street parking that's preferably under cover.

That lifestyle is out of reach for a great many people, and completely takes the "charge at home" option off the table for them. Now, how does that get resolved with the push to make EVs "for everybody"?


Norm

Hey according to some prognosticator we all bought $30k+ cars, what are you worried about the little people for?

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

It's easy to come up with reasons why it won't work today. And they are real. Buy then everyone claims it can't be fixed, when it can.

I think the catch with that comes in the necessary fixes being economical enough.

Also keep in mind there is a side purpose for EVs. They are farrrrrr superior for autonomous vehicles at L5. And for as much as everyone hates EVs for the lack of vibration and sound to enhance the driving experience, the hate for not having any controls is even higher here. Or should be, lol.

Trust me, that unpleasant/downright scary thought crossed my mind a long time ago.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Hey according to some prognosticator we all bought $30k+ cars, what are you worried about the little people for?

You don't have to look any further than a few posts back in this thread to find at least one Camaro owner who lives in an apartment complex.

Never mind that if the ultimate goal is 100% EVs that it has to be able to work at least reasonably well for everybody. Affordability is only one aspect (but you might want to consider the mountain of student debt that so many college graduates start their career with. If they can find a job in the field that they studied).


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This necessarily assumes home ownership, either single-family or duplex/condo dwelling with off-street parking that's preferably under cover.

That lifestyle is out of reach for a great many people, and completely takes the "charge at home" option off the table for them. Now, how does that get resolved with the push to make EVs "for everybody"?


Norm

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

You don't have to look any further than a few posts back in this thread to find at least one Camaro owner who lives in an apartment complex.

Never mind that if the ultimate goal is 100% EVs that it has to be able to work at least reasonably well for everybody. Affordability is only one aspect (but you might want to consider the mountain of student debt that so many college graduates start their career with. If they can find a job in the field that they studied).


Norm

100% EVs on the road may never actually happen. There will be a market for ICEs up until the point a) they are outlawed or b) gas is so rare it becomes so expensive it's just not realistic. If you have to drive an hour to get gas or you have to keep gas at home to make it convenient maybe there will be a die hard. But a) to me is a scary and realistic outcome.....in 20 or 30 years. Today there are something like 200,000,000 ICEs on the road and replacing them with ICEs will take a) to happen or 15 years with 100% of sales being EVs and that won't happen for well past GM's 2030 target. Many, including me, will be long gone from this earth before we see that.

There have been several hurdles for EVs over the past 10 years.

First was simply range. You can taught all day that 90% of daily drives are less than 50 miles but that won't fix range anxiety. But the new Bolt and Bolt SUV are at 250 miles. Teslas with much more battery can get 400. Fixed.

Next is cost. GM has said Ultium gets them to cost parity with an ICE. I haven't seen that. Lyriq pricing is $59,000 for a single motor RWD model. The similar 2 row SUV from Cadillac is the XT5. Starting price is $43,000. That's a big difference. Now the Lyriq is more stylish and likely has Escalade level tech compared to the XT5 but I can buy a lot of gas for $16,000. So maybe next gen batteries get us there but for now, NOT fixed.

Charging. That's a work in progress. As pointed out there is not a convenient solution yet if you are not a homeowner. Yes, quick charging is an answer and yes people are going to work every day to fix that problem. But as of today, the infrastructure isn't there. So as of now, NOT fixed.

Oh and a rare political comment from me, STOP paying people $7,500 to buy $100,000 plus Porsche, Audi and Tesla EVs. If you have to at least set a price that helps someone get into an EV for $20,000 or so. Maybe only apply it to EVs with a OTD price of less than $30,000.

In the long run, the EV will likely be the better mousetrap for most people. You may not want a mouse trap, but profit will drive the solution as well as emissions. So if China wants EVs, the rest of the world will get EVs. Reason? The Chinese auto market is over 30 million per year, almost double the US. Scale wins. And if you want to check it, go the Buick China website and look at the cars we don't get here.

[Number 3]

A good reference article on the current state of track performance for an EV. A few months old.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...jX570MTIz60Q6E

[raptor5244]

Here are some of the driving nuances (good or bad, you decide) of an EV that you don't really fully realize until you own one for a while.

-Idling (so to speak) consumes very little energy (you don't feel like you are wasting money to keep the AC on), no extra heat from the engine or exhaust or fear of overheating if sitting in 110 degree heat. Nice for when you have to wait for someone in a parking lot, etc. This is just one of those things you appreciate and immediately sense an EV is much more efficient at.

- Braking regen from the electric motor not only transfers some energy back into the main battery but it reduces the use of the friction brakes. Less fatigue in stop and go traffic with one pedal driving, less wear and extremely low brake dust on the wheels. I can go a couple months and without seeing any brake dust on the wheels.

- Stop and go traffic - when the EV has no transmission and you are basically using one pedal to stop and go, it is just easier to drive and less annoying. The car will come to a complete stop and apply brake hold if you want.

- Low noise and vibration - engine and exhaust noise is replaced with wind and tire noise. It is overall more peaceful if you like that. The big benefit is when listening to music. The audio sounds so much better in a quiet EV. On the flip side it is very quiet, some folks like that you can hear what the tires are doing in a turn but I would argue the drama you get from a muscle car is more exciting. Now if we are comparing the vibration and exhaust note of a Toyota Camry then I would rather drive the EV.

- No transmission - this one has its pros and cons imo. The instant torque/throttle response and not having to wait for a downshift or upshift in many ways feels like a quantum leap over ICE. In normal street driving the car always feels like it is in the power band. Passing performance in the 0-70mph is absolutely ridiculous. So smooth and effortless. The downside is at higher speeds the EV will not have the same pull as it does at lower speeds. It still pulls plenty hard but you can tell the lack of gearing is limiting performance. I would expect to see 2-speed transmissions eventually show up in performance EVs. I think the Taycan is using a ZF 2-speed.

- Charging at home is nice - it feels like you own the pump so to speak. Never having to stop at a gas station feels weird for the first few months and you always leave the house with a full charge if you top off each night. After a couple months the cost savings become very apparent if you drive the typical miles most folks do. I estimate about $200-300 savings per month for my wife and I.

- Highway driving - this is where you see EVs are at a disadvantage. Some new EV owners do not like the pronounced wind and tire noise at highway speeds. They are not any louder but than ICE it is just without engine and exhaust noise you hear them both more. Also, you can immediately see the difference in efficiency on the highway. Without the regen in stop and go city driving you use up a lot more electrons keep the car moving at a steady 70mph+. On the positive side Autopilot in Tesla and SuperCruise in GM, adaptive cruise control and auto steering, reducing fatigue in longer trips.

Spirited Driving - it is hard to explain and it may just be my OCD hangup but when I was in the mood to drive my Camaro or Corvette in a spirited manner I always felt like I was beating on it as if I was about to damage something. However, in the Tesla Performance EV I feel like you can mash the pedal at every opportunity and it doesn't feel like you are beating on it in the same way. I don't know if it is because of the simplicity of the EV powertrain, smoother power delivery or because you go 0-60mph in 3 flat with no noise or just the lack of overall drama but other owners have expressed this as well. It just seems to perform with less effort than ICE, I guess that is just the perk of a torque curve shaped like a square wave.

Model 3 Performance in Blue and Model 3 Dual Motor in Red

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This necessarily assumes home ownership, either single-family or duplex/condo dwelling with off-street parking that's preferably under cover.

That lifestyle is out of reach for a great many people, and completely takes the "charge at home" option off the table for them. Now, how does that get resolved with the push to make EVs "for everybody"?


Norm

Those who have a place and a way to charge EVs will do so in ever increasing numbers. Those who don’t will continue to buy ICE vehicles. The main reason I believe ICE vehicles will be around for a long, long time. They’ll just have to share the market and the road with EVs. Some segments of ICE will likely totally disappear.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A good reference article on the current state of track performance for an EV. A few months old.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...jX570MTIz60Q6E

That's an interesting article, i was surprised a $200k Taycan can't beat the ss 1le lightning lap time 2:54.8, but then i saw it weighs 5200lbs! Seems strange tesla won't let C&D a go with the m3 performance. What are they worried about? The car has a track mode for thermal management, and it wouldn't reach limp mode in 1 lap like the model S did. Does the m3p have eco tires stock, i don't think it does?

[90503]

A lot of unrealistic scenarios suggested to promote EVs....

Again the $200,000.00 Taycan as a EV track car. A ZL1 is less than half the price...

Apartments going begging for tenants because they can't support on site EV charging...lol..That's a good one.

The $7500.00 tax credit should be limited to EVs costing less than $30K. Which non-existent EV would that be? GM should be given another round of credits? And, according to Barra, that is supposedly the hallmark of a fair marketplace?..lol

Just drive in a recharge for 15 minutes and have a ball while waiting. You'll have the place all to yourselves! Maybe for now. A current circumstance that will be very short lived should EVs start selling in any significant numbers...

gm only makes the Bolt. Yet the charging and availability is touted as no problem. Of course it's no problem. There are hardly any EVs on the road yet.

The generations and technology of batteries will get better and cheaper....That's a good one. Why buy anything now? Early adopters are already being told they are saps for buying in now.

EV electric charging is cheap...for now. I don't know how any one can believe that will remain the case. The very reason for EVs is to end the use of fossil fuels. Those same fossil fuels provide the very electricity EVs need. The use of fossil fuels to provide electricity will also end the same way ICE cars will be forced to end. Everyone's bill will be outrageous. Wind and solar power just doesn't cut it as a replacement, and is nowhere near providing any significant alternative to fossil fuels. These are the good old days now...

China's mass market dictates the move to EVs....For them, fine. They are in the process of building endless coal-fired power plants to provide the electricity for the EVs. What a massive bunch of BS when at the same time all the brain-washed toadies think EVs in the US will stop global warming.

The push to EVs is a folly of epic proportions. After the current system of fossil fuel and ICE transportation is dismantled, the mantras and slogans promoting EVs won't prop up the horrifically inadequate EV world any longer.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

100% EVs on the road may never actually happen. There will be a market for ICEs up until the point a) they are outlawed or b) gas is so rare it becomes so expensive it's just not realistic. If you have to drive an hour to get gas or you have to keep gas at home to make it convenient maybe there will be a die hard. But a) to me is a scary and realistic outcome.....in 20 or 30 years. Today there are something like 200,000,000 ICEs on the road and replacing them with ICEs will take a) to happen or 15 years with 100% of sales being EVs and that won't happen for well past GM's 2030 target. Many, including me, will be long gone from this earth before we see that.

There have been several hurdles for EVs over the past 10 years.

First was simply range. You can taught all day that 90% of daily drives are less than 50 miles but that won't fix range anxiety. But the new Bolt and Bolt SUV are at 250 miles. Teslas with much more battery can get 400. Fixed.

Next is cost. GM has said Ultium gets them to cost parity with an ICE. I haven't seen that. Lyriq pricing is $59,000 for a single motor RWD model. The similar 2 row SUV from Cadillac is the XT5. Starting price is $43,000. That's a big difference. Now the Lyriq is more stylish and likely has Escalade level tech compared to the XT5 but I can buy a lot of gas for $16,000. So maybe next gen batteries get us there but for now, NOT fixed.

Charging. That's a work in progress. As pointed out there is not a convenient solution yet if you are not a homeowner. Yes, quick charging is an answer and yes people are going to work every day to fix that problem. But as of today, the infrastructure isn't there. So as of now, NOT fixed.

Oh and a rare political comment from me, STOP paying people $7,500 to buy $100,000 plus Porsche, Audi and Tesla EVs. If you have to at least set a price that helps someone get into an EV for $20,000 or so. Maybe only apply it to EVs with a OTD price of less than $30,000.

In the long run, the EV will likely be the better mousetrap for most people. You may not want a mouse trap, but profit will drive the solution as well as emissions. So if China wants EVs, the rest of the world will get EVs. Reason? The Chinese auto market is over 30 million per year, almost double the US. Scale wins. And if you want to check it, go the Buick China website and look at the cars we don't get here.

Thanks for that response. Well put.


Though at some point there will be 2-EV households, and having to get up at oh-dark-thirty to swap the charging cable into the other car isn't likely to set well with people. Especially where both cars cannot be kept "under cover". Is this issue even being discussed yet?

I think I could go along with a sliding scale where the financial incentive to buy an EV gradually drops off as list price rises, at least up to some point where it goes away entirely.


Norm

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Hops

That's an interesting article, i was surprised a $200k Taycan can't beat the ss 1le lightning lap time 2:54.8, but then i saw it weighs 5200lbs! Seems strange tesla won't let C&D a go with the m3 performance. What are they worried about? The car has a track mode for thermal management, and it wouldn't reach limp mode in 1 lap like the model S did. Does the m3p have eco tires stock, i don't think it does?

Here is a a video from a couple years ago. Tesla M3P vs. BWM M3. This video was before the two 5% power bumps as well. The same car does 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4mi in 11.5 sec now. The Tesla M3P came with Michelin PS4s tires, although they just switched to the less desirable P-Zero for 2021.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Here are some of the driving nuances (good or bad, you decide) of an EV that you don't really fully realize until you own one for a while.

I may not fully realize them but I can picture what's going on for most of them and how they might affect me personally.

-Idling (so to speak) consumes very little energy (you don't feel like you are wasting money to keep the AC on), no extra heat from the engine or exhaust or fear of overheating if sitting in 110 degree heat. Nice for when you have to wait for someone in a parking lot, etc. This is just one of those things you appreciate and immediately sense an EV is much more efficient at.

Obviously, heavy AC and heating requirements are going to come out of range.

- Braking regen from the electric motor not only transfers some energy back into the main battery but it reduces the use of the friction brakes. Less fatigue in stop and go traffic with one pedal driving, less wear and extremely low brake dust on the wheels. I can go a couple months and without seeing any brake dust on the wheels.

Regen braking has a downside or two, specifically because the service brakes aren't getting used as hard or as often. This is already an identified issue within the undercar repair industry. For those who tend to brake harder and with more careful modulation, what about the electronic to hydraulic handoff going from regen to friction?

- No transmission - this one has its pros and cons imo. The instant torque/throttle response and not having to wait for a downshift or upshift in many ways feels like a quantum leap over ICE. In normal street driving the car always feels like it is in the power band. Passing performance in the 0-70mph is absolutely ridiculous. So smooth and effortless.

I'm afraid that for me at least, 'smooth and effortless' all the time like that doesn't sound like much fun at all. I'd rather have to do more of the little tasks that make up driving . . .

The downside is at higher speeds the EV will not have the same pull as it does at lower speeds. It still pulls plenty hard but you can tell the lack of gearing is limiting performance. I would expect to see 2-speed transmissions eventually show up in performance EVs. I think the Taycan is using a ZF 2-speed.

The curves you posted suggest that more than two speeds could be a viable prospect in a performance EV. Maximum acceleration in any single gear roughly mirrors the torque curve, but maximum acceleration at any given road speed more or less follows the HP curve.

- Charging at home is nice - it feels like you own the pump so to speak. Never having to stop at a gas station feels weird for the first few months and you always leave the house with a full charge if you top off each night. After a couple months the cost savings become very apparent if you drive the typical miles most folks do. I estimate about $200-300 savings per month for my wife and I.

That obviously works for some, but just as obviously will not work for others. I own my own house, and even have a 50A 220VAC outlet for the welding equipment. But my cars are all outside and not under cover, 24/7/365.

- Highway driving - this is where you see EVs are at a disadvantage. Some new EV owners do not like the pronounced wind and tire noise at highway speeds. They are not any louder but than ICE it is just without engine and exhaust noise you hear them both more. Also, you can immediately see the difference in efficiency on the highway. Without the regen in stop and go city driving you use up a lot more electrons keep the car moving at a steady 70mph+. On the positive side Autopilot in Tesla and SuperCruise in GM, adaptive cruise control and auto steering, reducing fatigue in longer trips.

Engine and exhaust noises can help you maintain a steady speed and can even help you judge how well your actual 'spirited driving' matches your intent.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the supposed value of those driver "assistances".

Spirited Driving - it is hard to explain and it may just be my OCD hangup but when I was in the mood to drive my Camaro or Corvette in a spirited manner I always felt like I was beating on it as if I was about to damage something. However, in the Tesla Performance EV I feel like you can mash the pedal at every opportunity and it doesn't feel like you are beating on it in the same way. I don't know if it is because of the simplicity of the EV powertrain, smoother power delivery or because you go 0-60mph in 3 flat with no noise or just the lack of overall drama but other owners have expressed this as well. It just seems to perform with less effort than ICE, I guess that is just the perk of a torque curve shaped like a square wave.

No flame whatsoever intended, but that sounds like you tend to drive the Camaro and the Corvette either gently or quite aggressively with hardly any of your driving falling in between. 3/10ths and under or 6/10ths and harder takes away the satisfying part in the middle where you know you're driving "just hard enough to enjoy it".

So yeah, I can picture how you might feel that way. Less effort for sure; no challenge on yourself to keep the engine running in an rpm range where it's happy enough for the situation of the moment, and you're not even going to be anticipating an AT upshift if that's how those cars are equipped. All you have to do is sit back, stomp, and let the car do the rest.


Norm

[Hops]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Here is a a video from a couple years ago. Tesla M3P vs. BWM M3. This video was before the two 5% power bumps as well. The same car does 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4mi in 11.5 sec now. The Tesla M3P came with Michelin PS4s tires, although they just switched to the less desirable P-Zero for 2021.

Yeah, i've seen that, it's an interesting video. But i'm still left with wondering how the tesla performs after a few laps when the battery reaches a thermal steady state. I've read there are varying degrees of degraded performance, for some it's not that noticeable, and others it's really it a big deal. I'm guessing it's track dependent.

I like the lightning lap because it's a long track, and because the drivers do several laps to get a time. It's at least getting closer to encountering problems a car might encounter during a track day session.

At a track event early this month, there was an on track incident that cut our session short. They scheduled our makeup session just following the next session. Our cars didn't have as much time to cool, and being it was in the upper 80's, cars started dropping like flies because of the heat, but not the Camaro