[BlaqWhole]

And yea the 16 gallon tank is a bit annoying. I can't imagine if I had another 200+ forced induced HP to the wheels and how often it'll drain the tank.

Which again is a telltale sign that Ford did not really do enough upgrades to the S550 over the S197. While all the other manufacturers increased the tank capacity, Ford kept theirs the same which is just not enough.

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Not that I am bashing the S550 - it's OK.
Here is what I can say that platform has actual issues:
>The chassis and suspension uses a lot of steel to save costs: sprung and unsprung weight - the suspension has to work more.
>Rear suspension geometry causes rear driveline angle issues as you lower it.
>There is a lot of bind in the rear suspension design in general.
>Something about the geometries of the suspension and wheelbase doesn't allow the car to have as controlled of a slide (i.e. the car spins easy).

The Mustang is very capable, especially the GT350/R, GT500 and Mach 1.

I agree with this assessment. It was always the case that the iRS in the S550 was not optimal, from the very start, but it was certainly a big step up from the solid axle setup that was in it previously.

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem is that a lot of these issues were present on the previous chassis (S197) and should not have carried over to the S550 chassis. But they persisted. Ford never took time out to correct these or to make vast improvements when they went to the S550 platform. However GM made a LOT of improvements when they stepped into the 6th Gen platform to such a degree that it is kinda indistinguishable in performance, handling, quality, etc...and that says a lot because the 5th Gen was amazing on it's own merit.

Agree, but considering there are multiple vehicle built by GM on the Alpha platform, the ability to identify shortcomings and engineer fixes is a lot easier and cost effective than when you only have one car built on a platform. And from my understanding, the S550 was just a derivative of the S197 platform, so it's not the same as when the Camaro went form the Zeta to the Alpha platform.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

Agree, but considering there are multiple vehicle built by GM on the Alpha platform, the ability to identify shortcomings and engineer fixes is a lot easier and cost effective than when you only have one car built on a platform. And from my understanding, the S550 was just a derivative of the S197 platform, so it's not the same as when the Camaro went form the Zeta to the Alpha platform.

Which is why the Camaro is and always will be the better vehicle for the money. Ford has too many excuses as to why they build sub-par products, products that are incomplete (no coolers on the PP2), products with unnecessary half measures thrown in to make up for clear deficiencies but increase the pricepoint dramatically (DCT on the GT500 and CF rims on the GT350), and making tge same exact car but just 5 different versions of it that all cost about the same but a mix mosh of parts from here to there and a different color scheme or graphics but still can't compete with the SLE in performance, options, or features (GT350, Mach1, PP2).

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Which is why the Camaro is and always will be the better vehicle for the money. Ford has too many excuses as to why they build sub-par products, products that are incomplete (no coolers on the PP2), products with unnecessary half measures thrown in to make up for clear deficiencies but increase the pricepoint dramatically (DCT on the GT500 and CF rims on the GT350), and making tge same exact car but just 5 different versions of it that all cost about the same but a mix mosh of parts from here to there and a different color scheme or graphics but still can't compete with the SLE in performance, options, or features (GT350, Mach1, PP2).

I can't disagree with that assessment, given my experiences with both cars. As I noted previously, however, having recently driven a Mach 1 with the handling package, it ranks right there with my current car performance-wise. Granted, it comes at a much higher price point, but the performance is still there.

I'll be interested to see the actual instrumented tests, same day same driver, between a SS1LE and a Mach 1 HP, if it ever comes to pass. I'm not betting any money based solely on my butt-gauge, however, on which one manages the better performance numbers.

[Staves]

Mach 1 is a cool car and obviously smart to put the excellent GT350 shifter in there. But it's priced close to ZL1 territory and that car will smoke it. A 1ss 1LE is a waaaaaay better value.

[BlaqWhole]

As Staves pointed out, the M1 is close to the ZL1 in price but nowhere near it in performance. And that presents a whole nother problem altogether. At MSRP the ZL1 is a terrific buy and the best performance value for the buck, probably in the history of performance vehicles. That is at MSRP. Throw in the discounts and, well, that tells the whole story.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Which is why the Camaro is and always will be the better vehicle for the money. Ford has too many excuses as to why they build sub-par products, products that are incomplete (no coolers on the PP2), products with unnecessary half measures thrown in to make up for clear deficiencies but increase the pricepoint dramatically (DCT on the GT500 and CF rims on the GT350), and making tge same exact car but just 5 different versions of it that all cost about the same but a mix mosh of parts from here to there and a different color scheme or graphics but still can't compete with the SLE in performance, options, or features (GT350, Mach1, PP2).

From the consumer standpoint blaq nailed it, it sucks. They got caught pants down and have been trying to fix it ever since.

From the business side on Ford's part they look brilliant, people still clamoring for the special models, keeping the product fresh with minimal(gt500 aside) dollars invested in an aging product.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

From the consumer standpoint blaq nailed it, it sucks. They got caught pants down and have been trying to fix it ever since.

From the business side on Ford's part they look brilliant, people still clamoring for the special models, keeping the product fresh with minimal(gt500 aside) dollars invested in an aging product.

I was waiting for your reply, lol!!

I do not think it "sucks". For what it is, the GT was priced very well, offered some really nice looks and exhaust sounds, and was very upgradeable. But it is when you get into the higher priced trims that the price offsets the performance out the box. We're at the point where the M1 has less performance and power than the GT350 but costs about the same.

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by Staves

Mach 1 is a cool car and obviously smart to put the excellent GT350 shifter in there. But it's priced close to ZL1 territory and that car will smoke it. A 1ss 1LE is a waaaaaay better value.

Shifter? You mean transmission, not just the shifter, correct?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

As Staves pointed out, the M1 is close to the ZL1 in price but nowhere near it in performance. And that presents a whole nother problem altogether. At MSRP the ZL1 is a terrific buy and the best performance value for the buck, probably in the history of performance vehicles. That is at MSRP. Throw in the discounts and, well, that tells the whole story.

I'm not sure why the fact that the Mach 1 is priced higher than the SS1LE but offers similar performance keeps being brought up in this thread. I don't think anybody, including me, has argued that the performance/dollar value is clearly in the SS1LE's favor.

Originally Posted by shaffe

From the consumer standpoint blaq nailed it, it sucks. They got caught pants down and have been trying to fix it ever since.

From the business side on Ford's part they look brilliant, people still clamoring for the special models, keeping the product fresh with minimal(gt500 aside) dollars invested in an aging product.

It is clear that Blaq and others see the price differential for performance as a "problem", but clearly Ford is having no issues selling Mach1's at its MSRP, so while it may be a problem for an individual buyer looking to get the most performance for their money, it is not an issue for Ford as a manufacturer.

Like so many others, I do not understand WHY the Camaro, in all trims, does not sell better than it does given the bang for the bang-for-the-buck advantages it enjoys in its 6th generation as compared to other vehicles in its segment. It is precisely why I bought the car I did. Best value for the money in the way I use and drive my car.

[Staves]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

Shifter? You mean transmission, not just the shifter, correct?

No....just shift knob.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I was waiting for your reply, lol!!

I do not think it "sucks". For what it is, the GT was priced very well, offered some really nice looks and exhaust sounds, and was very upgradeable. But it is when you get into the higher priced trims that the price offsets the performance out the box. We're at the point where the M1 has less performance and power than the GT350 but costs about the same.

haha it's been crazy busy at work so I am actually working and not on the forum that much lol.

You said it right.

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

It is clear that Blaq and others see the price differential for performance as a "problem", but clearly Ford is having no issues selling Mach1's at its MSRP, so while it may be a problem for an individual buyer looking to get the most performance for their money, it is not an issue for Ford as a manufacturer.

Like so many others, I do not understand WHY the Camaro, in all trims, does not sell better than it does given the bang for the bang-for-the-buck advantages it enjoys in its 6th generation as compared to other vehicles in its segment. It is precisely why I bought the car I did. Best value for the money in the way I use and drive my car.

After all the long debates about sales this and that to me it's pretty obvious. No matter which car in the segment you look at 60-70% of the sales are the low end trims. That is where the performance of the high end trims will not make up for any shortcomings.

The camaro is a bad coupe compared to the Mustang and Challenger. The enthusiast can look past those issues because of performance. The non enthusiast who wants a cool looking car might not be able to and first impressions are everything. Go into every metric of these cars, looks aside because those are personal tastes. What does the Mustang and Challanger do better? You get about the same tech, features, stuff like that in all 3. So what do the other two do better? They are better at being cars.

Number 3 said it best, they made the best Camaro ever in terms of a performance car, something truly special. They made a terrible coupe.

Unfortunately when only 30-40% buy the performance trims, you paint yourself into a corner, and to me they focused to much on that segment.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

Shifter? You mean transmission, not just the shifter, correct?

You really didn't understand what he meant?

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

I'm not sure why the fact that the Mach 1 is priced higher than the SS1LE but offers similar performance keeps being brought up in this thread. I don't think anybody, including me, has argued that the performance/dollar value is clearly in the SS1LE's favor.

You also didn't understand what "shifter" meant...so there's that.

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

It is clear that Blaq and others see the price differential for performance as a "problem", but clearly Ford is having no issues selling Mach1's at its MSRP, so while it may be a problem for an individual buyer looking to get the most performance for their money, it is not an issue for Ford as a manufacturer.

Like so many others, I do not understand WHY the Camaro, in all trims, does not sell better than it does given the bang for the bang-for-the-buck advantages it enjoys in its 6th generation as compared to other vehicles in its segment. It is precisely why I bought the car I did. Best value for the money in the way I use and drive my car.

Seems to be a lot that you don't understand.

The Camaro doesn't need to sell as good as the Mustang does. That fact is evident considering that the Camaro offers way more performance, options, features, tech (some of which is not even available as an option on Mustangs), durability, and a much higher finish/quality than the Mustang does. And all at a cheaper price. The Camaro platform is shared which means more ideas and a sharing of costs as well. The Mustang is not as fortunate. So all of this is why the Camaro can sell horribly and still remain in production. Plus, us ZL1 owners are in a very exclusive group unlike the competition.

[s346k]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Plus, us ZL1 owners are in a very exclusive group unlike the competition.

🤷🏼*♀️