[bomariam1]

Originally Posted by Faster12

My argument made perfect sense. The ZL1 with it's all around performance was still barely capable of beating the GT350R...so either 650 isn't enough or we need to cut some more weight. I want a definite winner and by a large margin. I'm asking GM to hold no punches. Make this thing the monster it can and should be.

This is life, today a Demon can go 1000hp, tomorrow a car will go even further.
The difference in my opinion is that I can modify my 2018 ZL1 to beat tomorrow Hellcat with little $.

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[Markoz28]

Pretty confident Chevy can make more power in the camaro but the cost would be much higher than someone would want to spend on a “camaro.” They could put on a better fuel system but might be to the expensive good brakes. They could have done a bigger blower but to the expensive of better suspension. Over all they could have done more but the cost would have been 80-90k to keep all the other good stuff. At that point your in and in some cases above a ZO6. So now why buy a camaro when you can get a zo6. It’s all about comprimising just the right amount to develop a car that a consumer would want to purchase.

[bomariam1]

Originally Posted by Markoz28

Pretty confident Chevy can make more power in the camaro but the cost would be much higher than someone would want to spend on a “camaro.” They could put on a better fuel system but might be to the expensive good brakes. They could have done a bigger blower but to the expensive of better suspension. Over all they could have done more but the cost would have been 80-90k to keep all the other good stuff. At that point your in and in some cases above a ZO6. So now why buy a camaro when you can get a zo6. It’s all about comprimising just the right amount to develop a car that a consumer would want to purchase.

Yep, Z06 and CTS-V are expensive.
and I hate the ground clearnce of the vette.
That's why I sold my C6 vette.

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[seanblurr]

[QUOTE=Faster12;10243790]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Can you show me the track times for all 4 vehicles on the same track? I can't find a willow springs lap time for the ZL1 1LE. I'm sure it's faster but I'd be interested to see by how much.

350R ran a 1:36.X while the Zl1 1le ran a 1:34.X at Laguna Seca. I'd say 2 seconds is a definitive margin.

[jjgi5150]

Hi all,

Why do any of us buy a car like the ZL1, or any of these extreme high performance cars? Each person's answer will obviously vary in extremes. Some want to drag race, some want to street race, some want to closed-course track race and some want to just street drive and tour drive. Each can certainly enjoy their purchase for what they intended. Some, actually many on this site, want to immediately modify their ZL1's to add more power and enjoy that result against other brands. Also there is the auto vs. manual comparison, and the daily driver vs. weekend toy situations.

My 5 cents on this is very simple. There will always be a faster car than what you have. Even when modified, someone's other brand will also modify and still have a faster machine. I, for one, subscribe to the thought process that I want to enjoy the car for it's intended design, looks, handling and creature features. It's obvious that GM, and the other makers, can, and will continue to put out more high powered machines. I see it as a drivers choice to pick something they want for the style of driving they do, and the overall draw they have to the vehicle they have chosen. I don't street race and never will. But I still get 3-4 cars a day wanting to go stoplight to stoplight or do roll on races every time I drive. This includes stupid ricers with wings bigger than my 1LE's, to legit high performance cars.

I'm sure some other makes would win in some situations. The purpose build of my 1LE is high speed road course situations, and in that, it excels. I respect the other brands out there for what they are, and see the only real competitors for the ZL1 1LE as the GT350R and maybe the GT500, if it ever does come out. I do believe GM engineered a well balanced car that can easily handle it's design purpose, if parameters are not exceeded. I would bet that a some owners of these high performance cars in this class never use the factory provided RWHP the cars come with, or they use it like so many of the post "Cars and Coffee" crashes you see on You Tube.

As a side note, I wonder if our drive train and mechanical, ie: axles, transmissions, oil pumps, etc., will really hold up to the extensive mods some are doing. It seems these LT4's and related drive trains are factory set to their strength limits, and the sometimes aggravating computer controls limit potential damage and warranty claims. I really love my 1LE for it's looks and inherent performance. I plan on it being the last car I ever purchase. I'm sure soon there will be another latest, greatest that arrives. But I really don't see a need to change, as I seldom use the available stock RWHP for my type driving. My fun runs over the mountains to Temecula and San Diego, and even simple street driving, are all very satisfying to me as is.



Just my thoughts....so blast away at me if you must...


JJ

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

In my opinion the easiest way to separate the arguments here is simply this...

Stop thinking about the Camaro, especially the 6th gen ZL1, as a muscle car that competes with the Challenger and Mustang. Start thinking of it as a BMW M3 or similar. The 6th ZL1 is not about the Big-high-HP-Engine-where-it-doesn't-belong game anymore. It's an all around car, it's more exotic than the Challenger/Mustang. Better everything. World-class handling and brakes, takes away from engine HP cost. But we live in a world where we're complaining about 650 HP and 650 TQ. Lol. The ZL1 already smears M3s, M4s, M5s, all the way up to McLaren 570s on a track. It costs $59k-$70k. What more do we want? We want the LT5! Aren't we selfish? Haha.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mcardenal

I don't get it?
HP is important, but isn't going fast (faster than the other guy) more important?
The ZL1 came out in late 2016 (MoYe 2017) with more HP than the mustang GT350 R and less than the Hellcat. Yet it is faster than both (1/4 mile, 0-60, track, etc...) in stock form. The Demon came out almost 2 years after the 6th gen Zl1, the Redeye isn't even out yet and the latest GT500 doesn't even have a solid release date (just a bunch of teasers).
The latest ZR1 is a monster at 3300 lbs curb weight with 755HP (.23HP per pound) vs the Demon at 4400 lbs curb weight with 840HP MAX (.19HP per pound).
Just for additional comparison;
The ZL1 is at 3800 lbs curb weight with 650HP (.17HP per pound) vs the Hellcat at 4400 lbs curb weight with 717HP (.16HP per pound).
So explain to me what GM is playing catch up to?

This is exactly what I've been saying ever since the Demon showed up.

Originally Posted by Faster12

While I understand every part of your argument, the fact still remains that the ZL1 could be more. Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing. I was never a fan of the LT4 because of that tiny blower. I also do not like the centrifugal setups but for most of the LT4s making big power that seemed to be the way to go.

Originally Posted by Faster12

My argument made perfect sense. The ZL1 with it's all around performance was still barely capable of beating the GT350R...so either 650 isn't enough or we need to cut some more weight. I want a definite winner and by a large margin. I'm asking GM to hold no punches. Make this thing the monster it can and should be.

You answered your own question. "The ZL1 with it's all around performance was still barely capable of beating the GT350R". You see it as "barely beating" the Shelby. Yet the Shelby was designed for 1 purpose only. It was designed to be a strict track car. The ZL1 was designed to be good at everything. Get it? Basically the ZL1 as an all-around performance car was able to beat the Shelby in what the Shelby was specifically designed to do. All of that while being cheaper and fully optioned. That would be like a person who could out lift powerlifters,out run sprinters, swim better than divers, out box boxers, AND beat everyone at a game of chess. It does everything well but cars that are purpose built can't beat it at what they're built for.

Originally Posted by Faster12

As you will have noticed, I did say I'm happy GM created a world beater in terms of all around performance, but I would still like to see a mid cycle refresh come with an hp bump or at least see them transplant the LT5 in this generation (wishful thinking). In all my ranting I did ask a question. I said what can or will GM do about it. We keep discussing this all around performance as if the MAJORITY of these drivers actually compete or autocross, road courses and the like. The fact is THEY DON'T. There are more stop-light to stop-light, highway pulls, and drag races than anything else.

And at what cost? Do you know how much the ZL1's price would increase by if they added the LT5 to it? At least $15K-$20K. Which would make it a $75K-$80K MSRP and at which point the vast majority of it's customer base would not be able to afford it or would not justify paying that much for it. And again, then what about the Z06? If they put the LT5 in the ZL1 then it would also have to go in the Z06 considering that we only got the LT4 because it was in the Z06 in the first place. So basically, the Z06 would increase to the price of a ZR1 and then what would they even need the ZR1 for? None of this is practical and GM would be stupid to attempt this. It would likely spell disaster for the Camaro and Corvette. Even if they did something to add extra HP to the LT4 it would still increase the price of the car and then what?

Originally Posted by Faster12

I would bet my years salary that less than 30% of the people who purchase ZL1s (non 1LE), will ever do any of real track driving. While on the other hand, more than 50% will either a) go to a dragstrip at least once, b) run someone from a stop-light or at least aggressively accelerate to be cool, or c) participate in some illegal street racing/highway roll racing.

The all around sports car pitch is cool in conversation, but it's not quite the title I'd give two shits about if I race once or twice a year, or not at all.

And the ZL1 is more than capable in a straight line. The only time a Hellcat can beat a ZL1 stock for stock is in a roll race and it would have to be in the higher speeds and even then it is just barely pulling away. There is no other performance area that a stock HC can beat a stock ZL1 in. So if that is the only thing that matters to you then buy a HC. You don't give 2 shits about the ZL1 being an all around car and GM doesn't really give 2 shits that you want something that is good at only straight line performance. If you go to the drag strip then even there there is nothing in this price range that can beat a ZL1 stock for stock. The HC would need tires and possibly a driveshaft to do what a ZL1 can do off the showroom floor. And at that the Hellcat can't beat the ZL1 at anything else. The Shelby can't beat the ZL1 at anything at all.

Originally Posted by Faster12

I just want the Camaro to be more. Is that so much to ask? Everytime we set the bar, the very next MY somebody shatters it. Remember the 2012 ZL1, yeah then came the 2013 GT500, and the 2015 Hellcat. Lol...see where I'm going. HP matters to Chevy too. Why the hell else would you have a 755hp Corvette??

The 13-14 GT500 came out a year after the ZL1 showed up with more HP than the 12 GT500. And the 13-14s had nowhere near the options or features that the ZL1 had. It was still solid axle, no heated seats, nothing. And it hasn't been around ever since. By the time it comes out which should be 2020, that will be 6 MYs since it last appeared. The Hellcat came out in 2015 and has not changed since. So these changes for 2019 are 4 MYs after it first showed up. The 6th Gen ZL1 has been out for one year man. So why are you criticizing GM after only one year and praising Ford and Dodge after it took them 6 years and 4 years (respectively) to make any changes at all? If anything you shouldn't be expecting GM to make changes until 2021 or 2022. And still, you don't even know if the 2019 HC or the GT500 will be able to beat the ZL1. All we've seen from Ford is them pushing and pushing the release of the GT500 back and that is probably because they need more time to make it formidable. And Dodge is making cars that are good at one thing only. It sounds to me like you aren't giving the ZL1 enough credit. Or you saw "717" and "797" HP and freaked out.

[Lafourche1]

[QUOTE=Faster12;10243727]

Originally Posted by Mcardenal

While I understand every part of your argument, the fact still remains that the ZL1 could be more. Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing. I was never a fan of the LT4 because of that tiny blower. I also do not like the centrifugal setups but for most of the LT4s making big power that seemed to be the way to go.

There is another part to the ZL1 vs GT350-R story. Yes, the ZL1 beat the GT350R around Willow Springs AND in every other performance category. 0-60 / standing quarter mile / figure 8 (not sure on that one - too lazy to look it up) and faster around Willow Springs. I think that it should be mentioned that a track focused car that has a habit of oiling the track is somewhat suspect. So, let's not minimize that the ZL1 can be a daily driver. Mine is. Try that in a GT350R in South Louisiana.

[1LE Red Dragon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You answered your own question. "The ZL1 with it's all around performance was still barely capable of beating the GT350R".

You see it as "barely beating" the Shelby. Yet the Shelby was designed for 1 purpose only. It was designed to be a strict track car. The ZL1 was designed to be good at everything. Get it?

Basically the ZL1 as an all-around performance car was able to beat the Shelby in what the Shelby was specifically designed to do. All of that while being cheaper and fully optioned. That would be like a person who could out lift power lifters, out run sprinters, swim better than divers, out box boxers, AND beat everyone at a game of chess. It does everything well but cars that are purpose built can't beat it at what they're built for.

This is the PERFECT analogy of the ZL1's purpose. To Beat Everyone at their own game... Only a few instances that happen in Mexico that the "Stock" ZL1 might lose.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by 1LE Red Dragon

This is the PERFECT analogy of the ZL1's purpose. To Beat Everyone at their own game... Only a few instances that happen in Mexico that the "Stock" ZL1 might lose.

I agree. Love the analogy too.

[bigmike32172]

No worries, I'm sure if we all just help out the Chevy dealers financially by having them fill our tires with some of their magic overpriced nitrogen our ZL1's might get into the 9 second club

[SoCal Smith]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

In my opinion the easiest way to separate the arguments here is simply this...

Stop thinking about the Camaro, especially the 6th gen ZL1, as a muscle car that competes with the Challenger and Mustang. Start thinking of it as a BMW M3 or similar. The 6th ZL1 is not about the Big-high-HP-Engine-where-it-doesn't-belong game anymore. It's an all around car, it's more exotic than the Challenger/Mustang. Better everything. World-class handling and brakes, takes away from engine HP cost. But we live in a world where we're complaining about 650 HP and 650 TQ. Lol. The ZL1 already smears M3s, M4s, M5s, all the way up to McLaren 570s on a track. It costs $59k-$70k. What more do we want? We want the LT5! Aren't we selfish? Haha.

Exactly!! I was buying a m3 until I test drove the ZL1 on a whim. The tech and driving experience is what won me over.

[Intimidator]

Yes we are selfish and want it all!lol
Since GM didn't offer me the LT5, I made up my mind to one up GM and make myself feel better...I'm gonna add a Whipple, Port Injection, Triple-X Heat Exchangers, Headers, Catless Outlaw exhaust with X-pipe, etc....and be happy with those minor mods. I might even be able to hang with the Demons and Snakes of the World!lol

[Stealth7]

Read it all, and would still love the LT5 and >755hp! My new Black '18 ZL! A10 is awesome, but I would jump at the change for the badder factory motor.