[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Evil-Bee-NH

I doubt the election had anything to do with it. Your starting to see the normal status quo set in. Mustang has always been a strong seller albeit this generation is a lot weaker then the last one. The 5th Gen dominated because it was gone for so long and only had a 5 yr. run while the mustang had been out already for 5 yrs. before the Camaro was released. Challenger is slowly fading but i'd say they're doing alright. What I think is hurting GM in Camaro sales right now is the tire choices most people who buy a Camaro atleast did some research and the options they offer can cause issues in the northern half of the state because on most 20" wheels you get stuck with A/S Run-Flats that suck so bad in the snow it's deplorable that they'd offer them at all.

True, I knew going in that the first thing I was doing was selling the run flats and buying all weather tires but that is a pain that not everyone is willing to go through.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Thank you! You are the first person to not state, " I DON"T have a problem so there isn't one"



To be clear, those are both cars that have also been hammered by the press for poor visibility over the years.

If you are used to poor visibility or it doesn't matter that a car has poor visibility that is great. It doesn't help the people that are going to test drive a Camaro and are coming out of a car that has good visibility or are looking for a cool DD 4 or 6 cylinder and expect good visibility (and a back seat and a decent trunk).

Not sure why you guys can't just recognize that factually, a low seating position in a car with a very high belt line (Thanks Ed Welburn) and a slammed roof DOES negatively impact visibility. It's just a styling trade off many have been willing to make. But it absolutely makes visibility worse. It just may not matter to you personally. Which is great.

For me? Visibility is horrid. Poor visibility and a trunk too small to hold all of my golf clubs (yes they fit if I pull my driver and lay it in the back seat or put the back seat down ) are the two reasons there isn't a Camaro in my garage waiting for my drive to work this morning.

Drive one for a week and lets see if you come back and still say its horrid.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Drive one for a week and lets see if you come back and still say its horrid.

Just because you can adjust and adapt to something doesn't make it not horrid or bad.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

To be clear, those are both cars that have also been hammered by the press for poor visibility over the years.

If you are used to poor visibility or it doesn't matter that a car has poor visibility that is great. It doesn't help the people that are going to test drive a Camaro and are coming out of a car that has good visibility or are looking for a cool DD 4 or 6 cylinder and expect good visibility (and a back seat and a decent trunk).

Not sure why you guys can't just recognize that factually, a low seating position in a car with a very high belt line (Thanks Ed Welburn) and a slammed roof DOES negatively impact visibility. It's just a styling trade off many have been willing to make. But it absolutely makes visibility worse. It just may not matter to you personally. Which is great.

For me? Visibility is horrid. Poor visibility and a trunk too small to hold all of my golf clubs (yes they fit if I pull my driver and lay it in the back seat or put the back seat down ) are the two reasons there isn't a Camaro in my garage waiting for my drive to work this morning.

You've never owned a Camaro of any generation. Correct?

I understand you dislike of Ed Welburn's high beltline styling direction. I'm very confident the gen7 will be a complete departure based on recent comments from GM.

The visibility isn't typical. I honestly don't notice it. Best car ever

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Just because you can adjust and adapt to something doesn't make it not horrid or bad to someone that can't or won't adjust or adapt to it.

I adjusted that....I think it makes more sense because it clearly isn't horrid or bad to anyone that has no problem adjusting to it.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by crazydmc

ummm, this is a Camaro forum.... if you don't like the Camaro then that is fine, I'm glad you won't get one.

You do realize Number 3 has done more for this forum than the vast majority of people here? I don't think his liking Camaro should ever come into question.

He has a valid point, the 5th and 6th gens both have that "sitting in a bathtub" feel, and he's not that only one who shares that opinion. Most of the reviews out there comment on the visibility issue at least in passing.

In any case, I'm of the opinion that the 7th gen really needs to get away from the modernized retro look established by the 5th gen concept, so hopefully that, plus Ed Welburn's retirement, helps with the visibility.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Drive one for a week and lets see if you come back and still say its horrid.

Originally Posted by hotlap

You've never owned a Camaro of any generation. Correct?

I understand you dislike of Ed Welburn's high beltline styling direction. I'm very confident the gen7 will be a complete departure based on recent comments from GM.

The visibility isn't typical. I honestly don't notice it. Best car ever

Nope, but I've driven thousands and thousands of miles in Gen4, 5 and 6. The first car I ever drove was a Gen 3. Because I was lucky enough to have a GM company car for almost 20 years I was able to drive GM's Corvettes and Camaros and I drove a lot of them. And I've driven Camaro and Corvette convertibles on cross country vacations and been able to get luggage and two sets of golf clubs in the car (and yes that included use of back seat with the Camaros.

Again, no one should be thinking I'm critical of you because you don't find the visibility to be a problem. I've said "great" every time. But I can assure from experience the measured visibility of the Gen 6 is not good.

This thread, every month now, has been about why the sales aren't as big as the Gen 5 or as big as the Mustang. Part of the reason is because in making, and pay attention everyone THE BEST CAMARO EVER, GM chose to go very aggressive with the styling and with Ed Welburn making the decisions, that meant a slammed roof and a high belt with big wheels. That look appeals to a lot of people and particularly those passionate enough to come on this website and others. What many seem unwilling to admit is that a slammed roof car with a high belt line and a small trunk and no back seat (seriously, GM even admitted this one publicly) doesn't appeal to as broad an audience. It's pretty clear now that with a pretty big incentive on the hood, sales only blipped a little and fell back down last month.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

You do realize Number 3 has done more for this forum than the vast majority of people here? I don't think his liking Camaro should ever come into question.

He has a valid point, the 5th and 6th gens both have that "sitting in a bathtub" feel, and he's not that only one who shares that opinion. Most of the reviews out there comment on the visibility issue at least in passing.

In any case, I'm of the opinion that the 7th gen really needs to get away from the modernized retro look established by the 5th gen concept, so hopefully that, plus Ed Welburn's retirement, helps with the visibility.

Ha! Fen, no need to defend me. This is Camaro6. You are talking about Camaro5.

Originally Posted by crazydmc

ummm, this is a Camaro forum.... if you don't like the Camaro then that is fine, I'm glad you won't get one.

Serously? You can honesty say you are glad I won't get one. Please explain that. I want everyone to want one. That's how much I love the Camaro. Not a specific gen car, but in general. If you knew my history and everything I've done and the connection of the Camaro to some very key elements of my life you might get it. It's an important car for me and I do know GM made some decisions that impacted the visibility for that sake of styling. I sat in too many meetings watching people explain that styling was the reason people bought GM cars. What they never talked about the is the reason why people DID NOT buy GM cars.

So I would bet you a large coffee at your favorite coffee shop that if you looked at the reasons people bought a Camaro it would look like this:

Performance
Styling
Value

And if you looked at the reasons people DID NOT buy a Camaro it would look something like this:

Price
Styling
Some level of Usability i.e. Visibility, trunk space, back seat

If GM is ok selling 60,000 Camaros a year then they hit the sweet spot.

If they need to sell more than that, then you can't do more performance or more aggressive styling. You would have to address the rejectors with the balance of the adopters.

Guys, I love the Camaro. I love this website for talking not just Camaros but a love of cars in general and Camaro5/6 has been the most active and enjoyable site I've found. It's why I am here too often LOL.

So if you are in a thread on why the Camaro is selling in low numbers, then you have to have an open mind on why others may not have bought or even considered one. Not everyone shares what is important to you to the same level or with the same priority. Otherwise you'll just be going, "wow it's the greatest car I've ever owned. I can't figure out why people aren't buying more of them" and you aren't helping identify how GM could help it sell better. And selling well with a profit is the only way for GM to continue to build Camaros.

[90503]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

You do realize Number 3 has done more for this forum than the vast majority of people here? I don't think his liking Camaro should ever come into question.

He has a valid point, the 5th and 6th gens both have that "sitting in a bathtub" feel, and he's not that only one who shares that opinion. Most of the reviews out there comment on the visibility issue at least in passing.

In any case, I'm of the opinion that the 7th gen really needs to get away from the modernized retro look established by the 5th gen concept, so hopefully that, plus Ed Welburn's retirement, helps with the visibility.

Yes, indeed. Number 3 is entitled to his opinion. And that's all it is....just his opinion that doesn't have to be acknowledged as the one and only correct opinion.

[crazydmc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

...Serously? You can honesty say you are glad I won't get one. Please explain that. I want everyone to want one. That's how much I love the Camaro....

Absolutely, I don't want anyone else to get one. Even better if GM stopped making them.

That said, I probably would not have commented in this thread, but the red flaming face in the Poor Visibility discussion struck me as an extreme reaction that I could not understand.

I can see you have deep interest in the brand and I don't... so I'm happy to leave this thread alone.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by crazydmc

Absolutely, I don't want anyone else to get one. Even better if GM stopped making them.

Well...that's it.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet in over 2 years on this forum.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by crazydmc

Absolutely, I don't want anyone else to get one. Even better if GM stopped making them.

That said, I probably would not have commented in this thread, but the red flaming face in the Poor Visibility discussion struck me as an extreme reaction that I could not understand.

I can see you have deep interest in the brand and I don't... so I'm happy to leave this thread alone.

Before you leave this thread alone...Could you please elaborate on the above ? I hope you were being facetious.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 90503

Yes, indeed. Number 3 is entitled to his opinion. And that's all it is....just his opinion that doesn't have to be acknowledged as the one and only correct opinion.

Agree 100% as long as you at least acknowledge my credentials and experience..........and even if you don't I still agree 100% as this is the internet and my minor in automotive engineering, my thesis on on driver packaging and ergonomics and my managing the team that delivers the C6 Z06 aluminum frame and all the carbon fiber, along with a lot of other really cool stuff, mean nothing,.......absolutely nothing........and I am serious as I expect not one person to acknowledge my credentials.....as this is, after all, the Internet.

[SpookShow'84]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Well...that's it.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet in over 2 years on this forum.

That was pretty good. Hoping that the best camaro to date gets the axe, One of those people that wants to pull up the ladder once they're on board, eff everyone else.

[ssrs2lt]

Here's the thing I believe the camaro should be selling wayyyyy more! Its not and its given up its lead in overall sales numbers. Multiple reasons including gen 6..what really bothers me is this gen doesn't make me buy it, a hard core camaro fanatic. Obviously I'm not alone. Gm needs fix this issue which to me is interior seating size, trunk size and improved pricing..viz is hard to explain to non camaro fans as most of my family kids etc hate riding in them simply because they can't see the outside as we drive. I don't care what complaints they have but many people care what their family says hahaha. Anyway getting spanked by ford makes it a lot worst..end rant