[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

For what the GT 5.0 is, to whom it is demographed for and it's price point, the offered manual and 10 spd auto fits. You want a higher more visceral experience from a Ford, then you're gonna pay. Like most everything. Around the world cost more than a hand job...

Fixed it for you. That is the only point i am trying to make. This point can exist as a fact, and it not be a direct insult to Ford at the same time.

Fact remains, for every dollar you spend on a Ford there is a faster Chevy for the same or less(The 500 will likely change all that though).

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

I could be mistaken I guess but it came off as the big bad camaro scares the Ford guys... Plus all the superiority complexes around here about the
ZLE and how it still reigns supreme. No denying, it's a great car. Not what I wanted, or I'd have one. That's all.

That part was tongue in cheek entirely, and directed towards the die hard fanbois, not the average car guy that just wants to own a car he loves.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Fixed it for you. That is the only point i am trying to make. This point can exist as a fact, and it not be a direct insult to Ford at the same time.

Fact remains, for every dollar you spend on a Ford there is a faster Chevy for the same or less(The 500 will likely change all that though).

If only more people wanted a camaro...

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

Yeah, mostly the suspension geometry issues that plague the base S550 chassis that Ford seems to have fixed with the GT350 / 500. Made more weird by the fact that Ford generally doesn't have an issue with leaving early adopters in the dust (15-17 GT...).

Of course, you can spin this as 'Ford is always innovating!' but it's more like 'Ford does the minimum necessary until they get stomped on!'

I was looking to spend 40k on a car I could bring to the track and not worry about. The 1LE is really the only game in that price range. I didn't want to spend 40k and then have to drop a couple grand more in suspension / cooling upgrades just to make it liveable on the track.

Yup, exactly. Especially considering how long the Mustang generations last, some trickle down makes a ton of sense and can be done without stepping on the toes of the upper models.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

If only more people wanted a camaro...

I hope it sticks around, honestly I do, but I don't think my next sports car will be a modern pony anyway, so I wont lose sleep.

To switch things up, I think GM could learn a thing or two from Ford.

Sales, marketing, hype.....Ford does so much better.

I would hate to have to pay ADMs, but at the same time Ford did something very right to have cars commanding it.

I will get flamed, but Ford kills it in this arena compared to GM.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I hope it sticks around, honestly I do, but I don't think my next sports car will be a modern pony anyway, so I wont lose sleep.

To switch things up, I think GM could learn a thing or two from Ford.

Sales, marketing, hype.....Ford does so much better.

I would hate to have to pay ADMs, but at the same time Ford did something very right to have cars commanding it.

I will get flamed, but Ford kills it in this arena compared to GM.

That's funny. Most Ford guys think Ford's release of the GT500 was botched and handled by a kid with a social media account. I personally think the build up to the release of the Demon by Dodge was excellent and the best I'd ever seen.

ADMs on the GT500 are for now. For those that HAVE to have it right now. In a year maybe I'll get serious about one at MSRP or below. Ford's producing about 5k units. They'll be some left to pick over just like there is for the GT350R right now. One thing is for sure, I won't take letting go of my R lightly. The GT500 must handle at least as well.

[rocket403]

Dodge does a much better job than Ford or Chevy to build up their cars. Challenger is on a 15 year old platform and selling close to Mustang and out selling Camaro.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

I wouldn't say "pointless" Blaq...

... Felicia is rather entertaining!

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Jesus, has that guy ever heard of a comma?

LOL, these Ford guys. I am surprised he was able to find his way on the internet to find this site.

I imagine he talks like he writes and he sounds just as loony and foaming at the mouth.

Originally Posted by Rodan

Or a complete sentence...

Originally Posted by rocket403

Not sure you would say 1% base price increase to 2.6% loaded up is shooting up in price, and Camaro with all the track cred and the performance is not all round car that people want. The talk that I have seen here some want to pick up the C8.

If I was a die hard GM guy I guess the Vette would be the car I get, why would I even look at the Camaro? What does the Camaro offer that I could not get with the C8.

If nothing changes for Camaro in the next while it will be retired again.

1% Still brings the price up to over $100K. And it is even harder to justify spending that kind of money on a car that does only 1 thing really good.

A diehard GM guy would buy a Camaro over a Vette in certain cases. For example, if they wanted the A10 trans. Or a car that has similar performance but at a better price. Option to option the Vettes are still significantly more expensive than their Camaro counterparts. Some people might not want to spend $110K on a brand new Z06 3LZ but would spend $70K on the comparably equipped ZL1.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Pretty much is an attempt to bash but there are some times it makes sense

I sort of get it. Where I get it, is it does kind of limit what they can do with it engine wise. It basically just kind of limits them if they need/want to respond to something or just need to change it up they can't/won't/haven't. From the Camaro guys I see mad about that is the Z/28 fans because there is no engine out there for it right now, hence no Z/28. I am looking to the 7th gen camaro and will the hipo version have the rumored 5.5L FPC for the C8 Z06? that engine makes a lot of sense for a ME car. Not so much for a triple threat car like the ZL1 to me. Or will it have to have it's engine come from a derivative of the Blackwing since it seemingly has no home. That is an instance where being able to have unique engines isn't a bad thing.

But like you said, it's probably the primary reason the Camaro is so affordable compared to the competition. The LT4 is used in 3 vehicles. The Alpha chassis is used by 3 vehicles, the A10 trans was co developed with Ford and is used in multiple vehicles



Ford got caught with their pants down, and tripped trying to pull them back up so far this gen.



This is why competition is so important. It's why I don't get the excitement some guys got when there was reports of Camaro's demise

Good points!!

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

That's funny. Most Ford guys think Ford's release of the GT500 was botched and handled by a kid with a social media account. I personally think the build up to the release of the Demon by Dodge was excellent and the best I'd ever seen.

ADMs on the GT500 are for now. For those that HAVE to have it right now. In a year maybe I'll get serious about one at MSRP or below. Ford's producing about 5k units. They'll be some left to pick over just like there is for the GT350R right now. One thing is for sure, I won't take letting go of my R lightly. The GT500 must handle at least as well.

That may be the case, I have said in here before that I cannot get any of my car friends(Mustangs mainly) to care enough about the 500 to talk about it. I cannot understand why, maybe you are on to something, maybe they just don't care for automatic cars. I am not sure yet.

If the 500 comes in a manual later, then I may be there with you. Depends on how the reliability and everything else is. I am very undecided and the two cars I am lusting over are very different('68 fastback Mustang vs 911 GTS), so who knows what the heck I will end up buying, but it WILL have a 3rd pedal.

After we last spoke about it, I did find a few R's just below MSRP. You're right, the 500 will be there one day too. At least the base will.

At 4225 pounds, the base will never handle well, relative to a GT350. You will have to step up to the $94K CFTP, and even then it may leave a little to be desired compared to your R in the handling department.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Dodge does a much better job than Ford or Chevy to build up their cars. Challenger is on a 15 year old platform and selling close to Mustang and out selling Camaro.

Absolutely!!!!!

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Dodge does a much better job than Ford or Chevy to build up their cars. Challenger is on a 15 year old platform and selling close to Mustang and out selling Camaro.

The Challenger is a muscle car throw back. It will always be cool that way. I don't view it in the same arena as the Camaro or the Mustang. They are Pony cars. One thing I find interesting is the number of women who drive Challengers. I would bet money they out number the number of women who drive Camaros and very close to the number of women who drive Mustangs. That's one thing Camaro has always had trouble with is appealing to women. And speaking from experience because I have a 17 year old daughter. There were three vehicles on her radar. The Honda Civic Turbo LE, the Jeep Wrangler, and a Mustang vert. We test drove all three. The Wrangler proved to have a little more body roll and control issue than we'd like for her. She loved the looks tho. We got her the Honda for gas mileage and dependability.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

If only more people wanted a camaro...

I'm selfish and I look to what suits my needs. More people wanting the Camaro means that dealerships will take advantage of us. And soon after that we'll be paying ADMs like everyone else. Demand for a product is never something that a customer should brag about. Because all you're doing is a disservice to yourself. Demand helps the seller and hurts the buyer in every case. If you defend it, then you are defending the fact that greedy people will take advantage of you. I doubt you get it. But look at it like this, what if you could go to a Ford dealership right now and buy a GT500 for below MSRP? Would you prefer that over going to a dealership and not being able to get one without dropping $5K into the dealership owner's hands before buying it? I doubt you will answer honestly. You will defend the markups. But deep down inside we all know that nobody is that stupid.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I will get flamed, but Ford kills it in this arena compared to GM.

You won't get flamed because you are speaking the truth. However the thing with Ford is that they are willing to take a loss selling GTs way below MSRP. They make up for it selling the higher trims for more than they're worth. It is good for people on a low budget who penny pinch and scrape together their money to afford a GT. But for those who want something with more performance, they get screwed to high Heavens. So you're either stuck buying base GTs super cheap, or fully loaded GTs for $50K, or spending ZL1 money for a GT350 that in no way compares to a ZL1, or spending more than a Base GT500 for a GT350R and still not getting even ZL1 performance...and then there's the markups. I don't envy Ford at all. With them, all the power is in the hands of the dealers.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You won't get flamed because you are speaking the truth. However the thing with Ford is that they are willing to take a loss selling GTs way below MSRP. They make up for it selling the higher trims for more than they're worth. It is good for people on a low budget who penny pinch and scrape together their money to afford a GT. But for those who want something with more performance, they get screwed to high Heavens. So you're either stuck buying base GTs super cheap, or fully loaded GTs for $50K, or spending ZL1 money for a GT350 that in no way compares to a ZL1, or spending more than a Base GT500 for a GT350R and still not getting even ZL1 performance...and then there's the markups. I don't envy Ford at all. With them, all the power is in the hands of the dealers.

Sometimes I have to stop myself when I realize that without the Alpha Camaro being such an incredible performer, the GT really would not be so bad(seem so bad I mean).

Without the SS being equipped standard with a badass Tremec, maybe the MT-82 wouldn't be such a black eye on the GT. Without the ZL1 being 65K, maybe the GT500 starting at 74K wouldn't seem expensive.

I am with you. I hate that if I want a fast Mustang or one with a good manual, that I have to spend over $65K, but sometimes I wonder if I am asking for too much because GM "has spoiled me" for lack of a better phrase HAHAHAHA.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm selfish and I look to what suits my needs. More people wanting the Camaro means that dealerships will take advantage of us. And soon after that we'll be paying ADMs like everyone else. Demand for a product is never something that a customer should brag about. Because all you're doing is a disservice to yourself. Demand helps the seller and hurts the buyer in every case. If you defend it, then you are defending the fact that greedy people will take advantage of you. I doubt you get it. But look at it like this, what if you could go to a Ford dealership right now and buy a GT500 for below MSRP? Would you prefer that over going to a dealership and not being able to get one without dropping $5K into the dealership owner's hands before buying it? I doubt you will answer honestly. You will defend the markups. But deep down inside we all know that nobody is that stupid.

I dunno what we're in disagreement with here. I too buy what I want and I do not pay ADM and have never paid an ADM. I have seen both sides of the coin tho on ADMs. Old dudes with not much time left to drive or even live want to get what they want now and start enjoying it. I get that part. But the guys who just throw out **** you money...I don't get that. Personally, I'm a deal hunter. I love the challenge in finding what I want for less. I don't defend ADMs but I can honestly see why some do it. The guy who ain't getting any younger and has worked all his life to accumulate wealth can do whatever he wants.