[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Demand fell because a lot of people don't like the 6th gen. Well, not enough to buy them in droves like they did with the 5th gen. The styling got a lot more derivative. It lost the signature muscle car look it had with the 5th gen. It also got more impractical by getting smaller in interior room especially the back seat. What perception of limited visibility was made even worse by GM making the side window height even shorter on the 6th gen. It basically became just a slightly cheaper Corvette.

If there was a perfect storm of what not to do to make a car sell better, GM did it with the 6th gen. Pricing it higher and making it less practical is not going to increase sales particularly in that market. They thought increasing performance would make up the difference, but it didn't work. They tried that with the 4th gen back in '98 when the LS1 came out with dismal results. The 6th gen is number 3 in sales behind both the Mustang and ancient Challenger.

If you are going for the muscle look, buy a Challenger, plain and simple. Mustang doesn't have the classic muscle look with the 6th Gen, either.

The practicality and visibility, I can see why that would turn people away, but if it's not a poor man's Corvette/BMW, I wouldn't be in a Camaro right now. I mean, sure, I went with a used C7 initially, but there are a few C7 converts or people who were going to buy a C7 and got in a Camaro instead.

You win some, you lose some. In a way, I respect GM for making this car perform well rather than trying to appeal the mass. Let's be honest here, is there a great sports car that's well respected in terms of performance that actually sold well?

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

If you are going for the muscle look, buy a Challenger, plain and simple. Mustang doesn't have the classic muscle look with the 6th Gen, either.

The practicality and visibility, I can see why that would turn people away, but if it's not a poor man's Corvette/BMW, I wouldn't be in a Camaro right now. I mean, sure, I went with a used C7 initially, but there are a few C7 converts or people who were going to buy a C7 and got in a Camaro instead.

You win some, you lose some. In a way, I respect GM for making this car perform well rather than trying to appeal the mass. Let's be honest here, is there a great sports car that's well respected in terms of performance that actually sold well?

All excellent points. These cars are meant to appeal to a certain class of individuals not the masses. The companies that make them get huge profits from other vehicles in their lineups.

[samurai]

Originally Posted by mikeman

If there was a perfect storm of what not to do to make a car sell better, GM did it with the 6th gen. Pricing it higher and making it less practical is not going to increase sales particularly in that market. They thought increasing performance would make up the difference, but it didn't work. They tried that with the 4th gen back in '98 when the LS1 came out with dismal results. The 6th gen is number 3 in sales behind both the Mustang and ancient Challenger.

Do we really have this sales number bs in every topic now? Overall sales numbers does NOT equal profit. Only GM, Ford and Dodge now how much average profit they get with their sold cars.

Ford and Dodge are throwing a lot of money at marketing. Chevy only brings the Camaro to racing events. How many Mustangs has Ford have to sell before they get the money back of an new ad? How many Challengers has Dodge have to sell the get the money back on a deal to get the car placed in a movie? We don't know.

If it's all about sales numbers, why did GM went bankrupt having the no 1 sales numbers across the globe?


Or look at what we know about the C8 Corvette: On every C8 that goes under $80k MSRP Chevy will lose money. So how profitable the C8 will be is all about which specs sell, not how many C8 they get to the customer

[Frisbey]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Demand fell because a lot of people don't like the 6th gen. Well, not enough to buy them in droves like they did with the 5th gen. The styling got a lot more derivative. It lost the signature muscle car look it had with the 5th gen. It also got more impractical by getting smaller in interior room especially the back seat. What perception of limited visibility was made even worse by GM making the side window height even shorter on the 6th gen. It basically became just a slightly cheaper Corvette.

If there was a perfect storm of what not to do to make a car sell better, GM did it with the 6th gen. Pricing it higher and making it less practical is not going to increase sales particularly in that market. They thought increasing performance would make up the difference, but it didn't work. They tried that with the 4th gen back in '98 when the LS1 came out with dismal results. The 6th gen is number 3 in sales behind both the Mustang and ancient Challenger.

It’s true, sales on the 6th gen have dropped, but I’m not sure it’s about style vs the 5th gen.

I traded in my 5th gen on a 6th gen. Granted it’s a ZL1, but in my opinion,
The 6th gen is simply a superior car.

That being said,
I’d suggest style is only a small part. The cost, economy, marketing, demographics and age of us older gear heads along with other factors all play a part in declining sales, not the least is, most people with a 5th gen love their car, and don’t see an advantage to trade up.
What we don’t know is, how profitable is the Camaro.
If it is, and I suspect it is, then it will continue for a long time in one shape or form.

One thing for sure, Chevy is quite good at hiding what they’re doing next, and only time will tell with the Camaro.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by Frisbey

It’s true, sales on the 6th gen have dropped, but I’m not sure it’s about style vs the 5th gen.

I traded in my 5th gen on a 6th gen. Granted it’s a ZL1, but in my opinion,
The 6th gen is simply a superior car.

That being said,
I’d suggest style is only a small part. The cost, economy, marketing, demographics and age of us older gear heads along with other factors all play a part in declining sales, not the least is, most people with a 5th gen love their car, and don’t see an advantage to trade up.
What we don’t know is, how profitable is the Camaro.
If it is, and I suspect it is, then it will continue for a long time in one shape or form.

One thing for sure, Chevy is quite good at hiding what they’re doing next, and only time will tell with the Camaro.

Very well put. I will add I think sales of the GEN5 were also Higher do to the absents of the model for several years. Now that the Camaro enthusiasts found ways to fund their dream cars sales have dropped off.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Your signature says you own a gen5 Camaro that sits in your garage.

Why did demand fall? In part because a lot of people buy them as toys that they don’t drive. Like you?

i cant speak for him,but ive put about 47,000 miles on my 2015 RS since i bought it in 2016 when it was sitting next to all the 6th gens.the 5th gen was a little roomier on the inside and i couldnt bring myself to accept a 4 cylinder camaro and didnt feel that i should pay $1500 more for the same engine that was the base engine in the 5th gen.still loving my 5th gen,and plan on wearing it out rather than trading it in.i would never buy the abomination that is the mach e mustang,but a mid engine,electric motored 7th gen might get me interested again.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Demand fell because a lot of people don't like the 6th gen. Well, not enough to buy them in droves like they did with the 5th gen. The styling got a lot more derivative. It lost the signature muscle car look it had with the 5th gen. It also got more impractical by getting smaller in interior room especially the back seat. What perception of limited visibility was made even worse by GM making the side window height even shorter on the 6th gen. It basically became just a slightly cheaper Corvette.

If there was a perfect storm of what not to do to make a car sell better, GM did it with the 6th gen. Pricing it higher and making it less practical is not going to increase sales particularly in that market. They thought increasing performance would make up the difference, but it didn't work. They tried that with the 4th gen back in '98 when the LS1 came out with dismal results. The 6th gen is number 3 in sales behind both the Mustang and ancient Challenger.

You didn't answer my question. Is your Camaro a garage kept toy?

I was making a point in regard to your comment that the gen5 success wasn't all related to pent up demand. I disagree. Had the Camaro come back in 2016, demand would have been a hell of a lot higher because all those gen5 forever cars wouldn't have been bought yet. People aren't buy these cars to drive like they did in the past.

I sold my 13 ZL1 M6 for a 16 2SS A8 as soon as I could. The 16s styling is similar to the gen5 (better IMO), it has better visibility (smaller A pillar) and a far better interior.

The 16 SS is also 423 lbs lighter than the gen5 ZL1, brakes from 60 mph in 9 ft less, has the same 4.0 sec 0 to 60 mph time and my SS A8 was consistantly 2-3 tenths faster in the 1/4 mile.

Compared to the 13 ZL1, my gen6 2SS was a better car in very performance metric, gave significantly better fuel economy (+10 mpg) and had tires and brakes that are much less expensive to replace.

A 16 SS automatic is also one full second faster in the 1/4 mile than the gen5 SS automatic. Gen6 SS performance jumped a full category equaling the former ZL1 for less money and lower operating costs.

I daily mine and have had back seat passengers one time total during the ownership of my 2013 ZL1, 2016 2SS and 2018 2SS M6.

So ...with all that said, how important is the back seat in a garage toy?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

i cant speak for him,but ive put about 47,000 miles on my 2015 RS since i bought it in 2016 when it was sitting next to all the 6th gens.the 5th gen was a little roomier on the inside and i couldnt bring myself to accept a 4 cylinder camaro and didnt feel that i should pay $1500 more for the same engine that was the base engine in the 5th gen.still loving my 5th gen,and plan on wearing it out rather than trading it in.i would never buy the abomination that is the mach e mustang,but a mid engine,electric motored 7th gen might get me interested again.

[GZL1]

A while back GM sent me a survey about hybrid Camaro. It said the SS 6.2L Hybrid would have 525HP and the ZL1 Hybrid was around 700HP. Sounded to me like the hybrid was already in the works and that was a couple years ago.

[mikeman]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You didn't answer my question. Is your Camaro a garage kept toy?

What difference would it make? 6th gen sales have been dismal even from the start.

I was making a point in regard to your comment that the gen5 success wasn't all related to pent up demand. I disagree. Had the Camaro come back in 2016, demand would have been a hell of a lot higher because all those gen5 forever cars wouldn't have been bought yet. People aren't buy these cars to drive like they did in the past.

No, it wasn't all related to pent-up demand. You can't make that excuse for the 6 full model years that the 5th gen was in production. Come on, now.

I sold my 13 ZL1 M6 for a 16 2SS A8 as soon as I could. The 16s styling is similar to the gen5 (better IMO), it has better visibility (smaller A pillar) and a far better interior.

It sounds like you're making rationalizations as to why you sold your 5th gen for a 6th gen. The styling is certainly not better. It's different, but it's not better. The 6th gen lost a lot of traditional Camaro styling cues in the process.

The awesome 5th gen (1st gen style) cowl hood was eliminated. The 6th gen got a weird multiple creased hood line with nostril type scoops that no Camaro in history ever came with. The back end, particularly the rear tailight section and the rear bumper, took on a import-like styling theme with the tailights being canted downward towards the center of the car. The rear bumper also gained a unneccessary super wide depression area for the rear plate which resembles a lot of recent import designs.

The A-pillars may be slightly thinner and hood does dip a little lower on the sides, but the side windows are 1/2" shorter and rear glass is flatter. To make matters worse, they designed the rear package shelf with a higher hump to make the view out the back window even worse.

The interior is certainly not "better" in any regard. If anything, it's a lot more cramped with a lot of busy design details built into the panels. It certainly is not a clean design by any means, nor as clean as the 5th gen. I've sat in numerous 6th gens and the interior is much smaller than the 5th gen. The back seat is now a joke. And, before we get into the better quality plastics argument. Nope, the plastics are about the same. In fact, I'd have to say that in some areas, it even cheaper in quality. However, most newer cars seem to be getting that way anyway unless it's a luxury brand.

The 16 SS is also 423 lbs lighter than the gen5 ZL1, brakes from 60 mph in 9 ft less, has the same 4.0 sec 0 to 60 mph time and my SS A8 was consistantly 2-3 tenths faster in the 1/4 mile.

You pick the heaviest 5th gen and compare it to a 6th gen SS. The 5th was heavier than it needed to be because it was based on a fullsized Holden platform. Of course the performance would be better on a lighter car like the 6th gen.

Compared to the 13 ZL1, my gen6 2SS was a better car in very performance metric, gave significantly better fuel economy (+10 mpg) and had tires and brakes that are much less expensive to replace.

The 5th ZL1 was overbuilt from the factory in both the drivetrain and the heavy Zeta II based platform. The ZL1 had heavy duty components, from the rear end to the transmission. The 6th gen SS is nowhere near as overbuilt as the 5th gen ZL1.

A 16 SS automatic is also one full second faster in the 1/4 mile than the gen5 SS automatic. Gen6 SS performance jumped a full category equaling the former ZL1 for less money and lower operating costs.

Still, it's not as heavy duty as the 5th gen ZL1. The 6th gen SS may offer similar performance, but once you start upgrading that's when things get a lot different.

I daily mine and have had back seat passengers one time total during the ownership of my 2013 ZL1, 2016 2SS and 2018 2SS M6.

So ...with all that said, how important is the back seat in a garage toy?

Now, it comes full circle. The 6th gen is basically just a slightly cheaper Corvette for people who can't afford a real sports car.

[mikeman]

The 5th gen ZL1 is still faster than the 6th gen SS according to GM. 3.9 secs from 0-60 compared to 4.0. 12.0 secs in the 1/4 mile compared to 12.3. The heavy 5th gen ZL1 is still faster according to GM.

Also, if, we compare the fastest 5th gen SS (LS3 manual) to the fastest 6th gen SS (8sp auto), it's only 6 tenths slower in the 1/4 mile and 7 tenths from 0-60. Not quite the full one second that you're proclaiming.

Nice try though.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by mikeman

The 5th gen ZL1 is still faster than the 6th gen SS according to GM. 3.9 secs from 0-60 compared to 4.0. 12.0 secs in the 1/4 mile compared to 12.3. The heavy 5th gen ZL1 is still faster according to GM.

Also, if, we compare the fastest 5th gen SS (LS3 manual) to the fastest 6th gen SS (8sp auto), it's only 6 tenths slower in the 1/4 mile and 7 tenths from 0-60. Not quite the full one second that you're proclaiming.

Nice try though.

I've owned both a GEN5 SS and currently own a GEN6 SS, there is no comparison. The GEN6 SS is running about the same spec as a GEN5 ZL1 and almost $10,000 cheaper than the old GEN5 ZL1(Comparing Window Stickers). Cheaper, within a tenth, more tech and better driving car. I won't even waste time on comparing to the old GEN5 SS. Don't get me wrong I loved the look of the GEN5 SS but after owning Corvettes I was very disappointed in how it drove after a few months of ownership. So much so I kept my C5 Corvette I had planned on selling. Once I drove the GEN6 SS I sold both the C5 Corvette and GEN5 Camaro SS.I never looked back.

Your comment cracked me up on it being a cheaper version of Corvette for people who can't afford a real sports car.. I think If you look around on the forum you will find several members that own both.. I've owned Corvettes for over 20 years and was just ready for a change. It was my option if I wanted a new C7 or the GEN6 SS.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by mikeman

What difference would it make? 6th gen sales have been dismal even from the start.

No, it wasn't all related to pent-up demand. You can't make that excuse for the 6 full model years that the 5th gen was in production. Come on, now.

It sounds like you're making rationalizations as to why you sold your 5th gen for a 6th gen. The styling is certainly not better. It's different, but it's not better. The 6th gen lost a lot of traditional Camaro styling cues in the process.

The awesome 5th gen (1st gen style) cowl hood was eliminated. The 6th gen got a weird multiple creased hood line with nostril type scoops that no Camaro in history ever came with. The back end, particularly the rear tailight section and the rear bumper, took on a import-like styling theme with the tailights being canted downward towards the center of the car. The rear bumper also gained a unneccessary super wide depression area for the rear plate which resembles a lot of recent import designs.

The A-pillars may be slightly thinner and hood does dip a little lower on the sides, but the side windows are 1/2" shorter and rear glass is flatter. To make matters worse, they designed the rear package shelf with a higher hump to make the view out the back window even worse.

The interior is certainly not "better" in any regard. If anything, it's a lot more cramped with a lot of busy design details built into the panels. It certainly is not a clean design by any means, nor as clean as the 5th gen. I've sat in numerous 6th gens and the interior is much smaller than the 5th gen. The back seat is now a joke. And, before we get into the better quality plastics argument. Nope, the plastics are about the same. In fact, I'd have to say that in some areas, it even cheaper in quality. However, most newer cars seem to be getting that way anyway unless it's a luxury brand.

You pick the heaviest 5th gen and compare it to a 6th gen SS. The 5th was heavier than it needed to be because it was based on a fullsized Holden platform. Of course the performance would be better on a lighter car like the 6th gen.

The 5th ZL1 was overbuilt from the factory in both the drivetrain and the heavy Zeta II based platform. The ZL1 had heavy duty components, from the rear end to the transmission. The 6th gen SS is nowhere near as overbuilt as the 5th gen ZL1.

Still, it's not as heavy duty as the 5th gen ZL1. The 6th gen SS may offer similar performance, but once you start upgrading that's when things get a lot different.

Now, it comes full circle. The 6th gen is basically just a slightly cheaper Corvette for people who can't afford a real sports car.

Styling is subjective. I am surprised how much people actually compliment my 6th Gen even though it's the, ahem, "ugly" facelift one. We get it, you like the old muscle look, and that's why the Challenger exists.

Keep in mind that Mustangs, Camaros, and Corvettes were starting to be designed to be global cars. So the designs have to appeal to oversea audiences, and they will also have to meet oversea standards. I don't like the Mustang facelift, but supposedly it was made with European pedestrian safety standards in mind.

And implying Camaro isn't a real sports car? Really? 6th Gens are compared to the likes of BMW M4 FFS. IMO it's more of a sports car with a muscle/pony car engine and certain styling cues. And as I said, if it's not a "cheaper Corvette"(as if that's a bad thing, somehow), I wouldn't care about Camaro, and I am sure there are some people who feel that way here. That's not to mention you can pick up a used C7 for the same price as a new 6th Gen, so your "Camaro is for people who can't afford a Corvette" argument doesn't even work.

As for performance, let's just say that there is more to it than straight-line performance. It's the chassis that won me over personally when, again, it's compared to BMW M4 and C7.

You don't like 6th Gen, and that' fine, but some of your points are getting ridiculous.

[mikeman]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Styling is subjective. I am surprised how much people actually compliment my 6th Gen even though it's the, ahem, "ugly" facelift one. We get it, you like the old muscle look, and that's why the Challenger exists.

Keep in mind that Mustangs, Camaros, and Corvettes were starting to be designed to be global cars. So the designs have to appeal to oversea audiences, and they will also have to meet oversea standards. I don't like the Mustang facelift, but supposedly it was made with European pedestrian safety standards in mind.

And implying Camaro isn't a real sports car? Really? 6th Gens are compared to the likes of BMW M4 FFS. IMO it's more of a sports car with a muscle/pony car engine and certain styling cues. And as I said, if it's not a "cheaper Corvette"(as if that's a bad thing, somehow), I wouldn't care about Camaro, and I am sure there are some people who feel that way here. That's not to mention you can pick up a used C7 for the same price as a new 6th Gen, so your "Camaro is for people who can't afford a Corvette" argument doesn't even work.

As for performance, let's just say that there is more to it than straight-line performance. It's the chassis that won me over personally when, again, it's compared to BMW M4 and C7.

You don't like 6th Gen, and that' fine, but some of your points are getting ridiculous.

Who says I dislike 6th gens? I'm just stating that I would never sell my 5th gen to get a 6th gen.

They redesigned the Mustang front end due to Euro pedestrian standards? Oh yeah. Give me a break. This is a urban myth. They redesigned it because it was due for a midcycle update so they changed it up to make it look different and perhaps be a little more aerodynamic than the old design. It's as simple as that.

Yes, a cheaper Corvette is what the 6th gen became. The Mustang and Challenger now own the pony-car market. Since you really can't fit two adults in the back seat anymore, the Camaro is now a poor man's Corvette. A poor man's old Corvette that is. The new Corvette has gone up another level to mid-engine exotic design. Mustang and Challenger have taken the share of the market of which the Camaro used to compete in. When you limit the appeal of the car by basically making it a two seater, you will lose sales in that market

Unfortunately, sales continue to plummet which makes GM reluctant to invest in the platform with engine updates of which this thread was originally about. Keep in mind, both the Mustang and Challenger have received engine upgrades over their platform lifespans. The 6th gen? Nope! Not a single powertrain update unless you want to count the 8sp to 10sp auto trans upgrade which does nothing to increase performance from what I've read.

GM could've continued 5th gen production with a few updates (chassis lightening and powertrain upgrades) and probabaly kept the same sale figures or even better than what the 6th gen has been able to achieve. Remember, this is not about defending the 6th gen for 6th gen owners, it's about keeping the nameplate alive for future generations. Unfortunately, the 6th gen just put more nails in the coffin for the justification of a next gen Camaro IMO.