[Invertalon]

Originally Posted by KenMaro

While I do agree with many others that it is a "nice to have" option I am also of the belief that the reason this car and all other cars do not come with one already is because it would be one more thing that a consumer/owner would have to maintain.

I mean, they have a built-in one on the 'clean' side already on the newer engines. If they did the same on the opposite 'dirty' side that drained right back into the sump, it would not require any maintenance. Could they have not done that, if it was really required? Seems like one could easily be built in if it offered any significant benefit.

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by Invertalon

I mean, they have a built-in one on the 'clean' side already on the newer engines. If they did the same on the opposite 'dirty' side that drained right back into the sump, it would not require any maintenance. Could they have not done that, if it was really required? Seems like one could easily be built in if it offered any significant benefit.

Invertalon


This is a common misconception. The PCV system removes much of the damage and wear causing combustion byproducts, so what is caught is like pouring dirt into your crankcase. You never would return what's trapped on the foul/dirty side catch can. Here is picture of what is caught with our proper systems after being spun in a centrifuge at the lab and then analyzed:



This consists of 70%water and acids, 23% raw fuel, and 7% is oil, but it is saturated with abrasive particulate matter (ash/soot/carbon). So putting this back into the crankcase would cause excessive wear and damage in no time. This is what also happens with people running breathers as they have defeated the process that flushes and removes these contaminants from the crankcase case vapors before they can settle and mix with the engine oil.


The cleanside units on these engines traps a very small amount and its not a concentration of contaminants so it can be safely reintroduced to the crankcase.


Anyone with questions, just ask. We are happy to share years of data and facts on proper crankcase evacuation and air/oil separating crankcase evacuation systems.


Tech@EliteEngineeringUSA.com


Thanks!

[KenMaro]

Originally Posted by Invertalon

I mean, they have a built-in one on the 'clean' side already on the newer engines. If they did the same on the opposite 'dirty' side that drained right back into the sump, it would not require any maintenance. Could they have not done that, if it was really required? Seems like one could easily be built in if it offered any significant benefit.

I am not an engineer or a scientist. All I know for certain is what I emptied out of my catch can. Is it a significant benefit? Probably not, especially in the short term. As I have mentioned previously though I plan to keep my car for 10+ years (as I have with all my cars) and considering what I pulled out of the closed system with the catch can I know it can't be good for the engine.

The great thing about the catch can (and all other mods we can do to our cars) is they are optional. I would imagine for many people that don't keep their cars for years upon years it makes no sense to spend the money on something that could possibly keep the engine performing at closer to optimal levels for a longer time. For my thinking, I spent way too much money on this car to let a couple hundred dollar mod get in the way of me keeping the car working as well as can be for the duration of my ownership.

[Invertalon]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Invertalon
The cleanside units on these engines traps a very small amount and its not a concentration of contaminants so it can be safely reintroduced to the crankcase.

How long does it take, mileage wise, to end up with any significant amount of oil in the catch can? From what I have seen, people might find a minimal amount, if any. 2-3 ounces at most? Dilute that into 10-quarts of oil each OCI and hardly any problem on the properties of the oil.

I just find it hard to believe if the manufacturer thought this was a real problem, that they would not have a provision already built in, especially something so 'cheap'. Even if allowing all that water/acids/solids drain back into the sump where the water would vaporize when at operating temperature, the acids and fuel would be diluted in the 10-qt of oil used. Any (damaging) solids would be picked up by the oil filter.

Granted, I'm no automotive engineer (mechanical/aerospace here), but there has to be a reason automakers don't already supply this "MUST NEEDED" product already on the vehicle, additional maintenance or not for the consumer.

I'd love to see independent studies performed, not by the product manufacturer and it's marketing team. I tried to look for this type of data and can't find this comparison. Even just someone performing a UOA for 7,500 miles between catch can and no catch can, comparing wear metals and other oil properties on the same engine/vehicle before and after similar driving conditions on the same engine. Perhaps a fleet car, averaged over two or three OCI's for each on a well broken-in engine already. That's the proof I'd like to see. A picture is just a picture without all the detail behind it... How many samples does that include? What engines? What service? How long was the OCI? etc...

I have been part of new product development and having to work alongside the marketing/sales managers to sell industrial products... When the marketing team and upper-managers start pushing lies and "snake oil" to customers on performance, I checked out and left that company. So until I see unbiased, third party studies... I'm skeptical to say the least.

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by KenMaro

I am not an engineer or a scientist. All I know for certain is what I emptied out of my catch can. Is it a significant benefit? Probably not, especially in the short term. As I have mentioned previously though I plan to keep my car for 10+ years (as I have with all my cars) and considering what I pulled out of the closed system with the catch can I know it can't be good for the engine.

The great thing about the catch can (and all other mods we can do to our cars) is they are optional. I would imagine for many people that don't keep their cars for years upon years it makes no sense to spend the money on something that could possibly keep the engine performing at closer to optimal levels for a longer time. For my thinking, I spent way too much money on this car to let a couple hundred dollar mod get in the way of me keeping the car working as well as can be for the duration of my ownership.

Do you add a catch can to all your vehicles then? I too also keep all my vehicles for 10+ years. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had no idea what a catch can even was until seeing it on this forum. I asked a couple friends that own corvettes and mustangs as well, none of them ever heard of it. I have never had an issue with any vehicle and none of my vehicles ever had one on it. Trust me, I'm not implying they are not needed and don't provide any benefit. Just curious if you do this only on a sport car or all your cars.

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by jamala00

Do you add a catch can to all your vehicles then? I too also keep all my vehicles for 10+ years. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had no idea what a catch can even was until seeing it on this forum. I asked a couple friends that own corvettes and mustangs as well, none of them ever heard of it. I have never had an issue with any vehicle and none of my vehicles ever had one on it. Trust me, I'm not implying they are not needed and don't provide any benefit. Just curious if you do this only on a sport car or all your cars.

The only engines that need a catch can are Direct Injection engines... Port injection engines spray fuel over the intake valves and keep them (fairly) clean, DI engines direct fuel directly into the cylinder, so any blow by that goes into the intake can get cooked onto the intake valves with nothing to clean it off... The idea is most of the blow by will get "caught" in the catch can, greatly reducing buildup on the intake valves of DI engines...

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Invertalon

How long does it take, mileage wise, to end up with any significant amount of oil in the catch can? From what I have seen, people might find a minimal amount, if any. 2-3 ounces at most? Dilute that into 10-quarts of oil each OCI and hardly any problem on the properties of the oil.

I just find it hard to believe if the manufacturer thought this was a real problem, that they would not have a provision already built in, especially something so 'cheap'. Even if allowing all that water/acids/solids drain back into the sump where the water would vaporize when at operating temperature, the acids and fuel would be diluted in the 10-qt of oil used. Any (damaging) solids would be picked up by the oil filter.

Granted, I'm no automotive engineer (mechanical/aerospace here), but there has to be a reason automakers don't already supply this "MUST NEEDED" product already on the vehicle, additional maintenance or not for the consumer.

I'd love to see independent studies performed, not by the product manufacturer and it's marketing team. I tried to look for this type of data and can't find this comparison. Even just someone performing a UOA for 7,500 miles between catch can and no catch can, comparing wear metals and other oil properties on the same engine/vehicle before and after similar driving conditions on the same engine. Perhaps a fleet car, averaged over two or three OCI's for each on a well broken-in engine already. That's the proof I'd like to see. A picture is just a picture without all the detail behind it... How many samples does that include? What engines? What service? How long was the OCI? etc...

I have been part of new product development and having to work alongside the marketing/sales managers to sell industrial products... When the marketing team and upper-managers start pushing lies and "snake oil" to customers on performance, I checked out and left that company. So until I see unbiased, third party studies... I'm skeptical to say the least.

Me too, it's hard to believe what a vendor says for sure due to the natural bias.

And to counter the point, here is an example of a Gen V Small Block with no catch can and relatively high mileage. That carbon buildup doesn't look bad at all, without a catch can and running 0W-20(truck engine).

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527593

Originally Posted by jamala00

Do you add a catch can to all your vehicles then? I too also keep all my vehicles for 10+ years. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had no idea what a catch can even was until seeing it on this forum. I asked a couple friends that own corvettes and mustangs as well, none of them ever heard of it. I have never had an issue with any vehicle and none of my vehicles ever had one on it. Trust me, I'm not implying they are not needed and don't provide any benefit. Just curious if you do this only on a sport car or all your cars.

Considering how many NA DI engines are out there, people who don't install one probably aren't missing much.

I know a friend who drives his Mazda 6 2.5(Skyactiv-G engine, NA DI) from Calgary to Fort McMurray every 2 weeks, and then some in between to commute. Granted, that's a lot of highway miles, but he does that in -30C or -20F in the winter where dilution and wear can also be an issue. Car has at least 240k km/150k miles now(in 4 years, it's a 2016 model), it still runs just fine and never misses a beat with all the regular maintenance. He is a Mazda guy(we know each other because of RX-8) and he said he would buy another one without a doubt.

The truth is that, yes, some people don't keep their cars for long, but I don't think the people who keep their Chevy/Toyota/any non-luxury brand for 10 years are a rarity. Then you have the unicorns like my friend, maybe he will keep his car for only 5 years but he is gonna have 200k+ miles by the end of that(I think his plan is to drive it into the ground unless Mazda releases a new 6). As an engineer, you have to take those into account as well. Recall that we essentially have a high-performance truck engine, and trucks can see some pretty tough use and high mileage as well, in greater numbers, too.

Sent from toaster or something

[Elite Engineering]

We are a company made up of Engineers, unlike almost every other "catchcan" vendor. And this includes an Automotive Engineer who had a good part of their career working on PCV system design and functions. This is why we provide the data, lab results, and work with the industry including a 2 year project with one of the most respected Lubrication Labs in the World. No other "Vendors" can provide this.

No automaker will include a device the consumer has to empty and dispose of every few thousand miles.


Also, oil filter can only trap down to 10-12 microns (depending on filter).


These particles that are present in the crankcase vapors are all smaller than 8 microns or they would have fallen out and settled into the oil already. Filter cannot trap those small particles. 70% plus of all internal wear is caused by particulate matter smaller than 10 microns.


Those water and fuel vapors are going to go where? The vapors containing water/acids/raw fuel have to go somewhere, and the crankcase is NOT open to the atmosphere.


And oil analysis proves this such as this example from the Lab:




This is from a test where app. 6k miles was run on the oil until the sampling indicated the oil had reach a "condemned" state where it can no longer protect the engine components. Our Patented system was then installed and run another app. 4k miles and if you look at fuel dilution (another example on how most of these substances do NOT magically disappear from the crankcase) and viscosity. While this is not what our systems were designed to do, the goal of the 2 year study was to find solutions to the most pressing causes of wear and failures in the new GDI engines (this took place in 2015/16) with LSPI and fuel dilution being the two biggest issues. Our system actually reduced the dilution and brought viscosity back into acceptable ranges. So no the vapors do not "evaporate and disappear".


And here is an example of the before and after dyno runs to show the lost power regained. App 20 whp and wtq:




This is from one of our long term customers who has been verifying just how our system affects the engine oil over extended use. This is just over 13,000 miles on the same oil. Please read the Lab Techs comments on this. Oil was changed at 20k miles. We welcome all independent unbiased testing, and this is why we don't just say "buy ours because we say so". We actually spend an immense amount of time and money actually working with others in the industry for that reason. And you will find NO vendors taking any of these steps. From bringing in engines of all makes (GDI engines) at different miles and different oil types, etc. to tear down and examine, and we share it with the public. From deposits on piston ringlands and grooves and rings to LSPI caused damage.


Any amount of deposits on the intake valves will disrupt the incoming air charge and some cylinders will be richer than optimum and some leaner. This is due to the ECU commanding all 4 injectors on that bank equally based on the upstream O2 data. So it takes little to negate the design characteristic's of an intake valve. Below shows an intake valve up close to see the polished stem to glide easily in the guide. The undercut where the airflow will pass, and the satin swirl machined finish. All to aid in as smooth and equal of airflow into the combustion chamber. And then a severely coked valve and mildly coked valve:








Again, assumptions and "My old Mustang" etc. have nothing to do with these new engines that were forced onto the industry with these issues. All are taking steps to negate the impact, but the most telling for the laymen is ask ypur self why, after the industry reached a universal standard of 100K miles engine warranties for over a decade suddenly dropped them to 60k, 50k, and even 36k miles on GDI engines.


Please ask questions for civil discussions and we have far more to share proving any and all of this.


Cheers!


Tech@EliteEngineeringUSA.com

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Again, assumptions and "My old Mustang" etc. have nothing to do with these new engines that were forced onto the industry with these issues. All are taking steps to negate the impact, but the most telling for the laymen is ask ypur self why, after the industry reached a universal standard of 100K miles engine warranties for over a decade suddenly dropped them to 60k, 50k, and even 36k miles on GDI engines.

Hyundai's engine are all GDI and all have 10yr/100k warranties... I've never seen another company (except Kia, who Hyundai owns) offer 100k powertrain warranties... 5/60 seems to be the long standing standard for American car companies...

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

We are a company made up of Engineers, unlike almost every other "catchcan" vendor. And this includes an Automotive Engineer who had a good part of their career working on PCV system design and functions. This is why we provide the data, lab results, and work with the industry including a 2 year project with one of the most respected Lubrication Labs in the World. No other "Vendors" can provide this.

Unfortunately, there is still bias just due to the nature that you are trying to sell your products. Not saying everything is false, but I would like someone independent to provide some data.

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

No automaker will include a device the consumer has to empty and dispose of every few thousand miles.

You mean like engine oil?

Just brainstorming, OEM can have a separate chamber that collects all this stuff(that's closed off from the crankcase), and then have it either share an opening somehow with an engine drain plug(sealing could be an issue) or have a separate opening near the drain plug that has clear markings on it to show it should be emptied with the oil.

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Again, assumptions and "My old Mustang" etc. have nothing to do with these new engines that were forced onto the industry with these issues. All are taking steps to negate the impact, but the most telling for the laymen is ask ypur self why, after the industry reached a universal standard of 100K miles engine warranties for over a decade suddenly dropped them to 60k, 50k, and even 36k miles on GDI engines.

I looked it up and supposedly, GM said they reduced the powertrain because it's not helping them sell more cars.

Combining with the fact that Hyundai actually does provide a 100k-mile powertrain warranty with their newer cars, GM's argument actually makes more sense. Hyundai is marketing heavily with their warranty coverage, and they have a lot of turbocharged DI engines that are more prone to LSPI and fuel dilution.

Engines can fail for a lot of reasons, so the shorter warranty helps car companies if it doesn't impact sales negatively.

I think a better argument for you is the development you see with the combined PI DI engines with Ford and Toyota. Even that has multiple reasons, not just for carbon buildup.

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

Hyundai's engine are all GDI and all have 10yr/100k warranties... I've never seen another company (except Kia, who Hyundai owns) offer 100k powertrain warranties... 5/60 seems to be the long standing standard for American car companies...

LS3 C6 and early C7(with the DI LT1 engine) Corvettes had a 5-yr/100k-mile warranty. Good luck finding a Corvette that's driven that often, though. 5 years will pass way before a Corvette hits 100k miles.

Sent from toaster or something

[BlackbeastSS2]

A forum used to be where car enthusiasts could get together and exchange ideas, experience, and DIY builds. Companies now pimp out their products with one thing in mind, “SALES.”

Elite is IMO trying to hard and trying to convince forum members their product is the best. I just look at speed shops, auto shows, and car conventions such as SEMA. They all market various catch cans and if there was a great got to have the best catch can on the market I would think all the race teams would be running the same one. But they are not running the same catch can.

Anyone new that posts a question about catch cans you can be assured that elite will show up to peddle their product. There is a forum area for vendors elite.

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by BlackbeastSS2

A forum used to be where car enthusiasts could get together and exchange ideas, experience, and DIY builds. Companies now pimp out their products with one thing in mind, “SALES.”

Elite is IMO trying to hard and trying to convince forum members their product is the best. I just look at speed shops, auto shows, and car conventions such as SEMA. They all market various catch cans and if there was a great got to have the best catch can on the market I would think all the race teams would be running the same one. But they are not running the same catch can.

Anyone new that posts a question about catch cans you can be assured that elite will show up to peddle their product. There is a forum area for vendors elite.

And the funny thing is, when I was in the market for a catch can for my brand new 2020 2SS back in January, I sent them at least 3 separate emails asking Elite for information on their installs and which can would be best for me and where I would install (mount) it on my Camaro... Guess what, crickets... Never got a single reply (they must have been too busy pimping the forums or something)... If they spent a little more time on Customer Service and a whole lot less time repeatedly posting the same things on the forums, maybe they'd sell more cans...

I ended up buying a Mishimoto Catch Can, installed very easy, looks great and is catching a good amount of oil... I'm happy with it...

[robertd33]

i certainly could live without one, but for $20, i created this option
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...php?p=10885835

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by robertd33

i certainly could live without one, but for $20, i created this option
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...php?p=10885835

What we shake our head at is the science involved in this and people don't attack a vendor selling $450 headers VS $2400 set, or a made in China tire VS a speed rated performance tire, yet here all lump each device into "It's just a catchcan".


99% of cans no matter the price are nothing but a small container that at best may trap 15% of what enters it (you know, the stuff you don't want ingested?) allowing the majority to still pass through and be ingested as if no device was installed (all containers will trap some) and then compare it to a true air/oil separating crankcase evacuation system, that not only traps 95% of what enters it not allowing hardly any to be ingested, but one that has enough unaffiliated 3rd party independent testing that validates and verifies what it does. From keeping your engine oil cleaner far longer reducing wear, to reducing most knock retard caused by this ingestion.


Not here to fight but to educate and share actual technical data. If you do attack us as the few that always do, we will ask Admin to deal with it. We have been a loyal supporting vendor here since near the beginning and without supporting vendors to pay the expenses of running a site like this, there will be none.


So, over 13,000 miles running our system by this independent tech that wanted to verify the claims we make of how flushing and removing the contaminants that overwhelm motor oil so it cannot protect properly to extending oil life. Again, we don't share ANY of our own tests. Just the independent techs that challenge a claim. So there can be no bias as we challenge any of you with any other system design to head to head testing.


Read the Lab Techs comments.



So comparing a $15 generic little container to a Patented proven (the 2 year study conducted by one of the Worlds most respected Lubrication labs alone....THEY funded 100%. THEY contacted us, and all we did was provide the systems. THEY purchased a fleet of different GDI powered vehicles.


So, investing $40-50-60k on an awesome vehicle and then trying to save a few bucks on a cheap on critical protection makes no sense to us, but feel free to choose what you personally want. We don't attack you for this, we just shake our heads. NO other company not only is made up almost entirely of Engineers like we are, but an Automotive Engineer with PCV systems and proper crankcase evacuation is their specialty. Not a single other company making/selling "catchcans" provides any science, and data, and proof. And we challenge ANYONE that thinks they have a device that even comes close to have a public dedicated thread on here conducting the testing.


Cheers!!