[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Again, totally missing the point.

Marketing is about brand recognition and awareness. Advertising is one way to do that. Having the Camaro in NASCAR is another. And having Hendricks buy every Camaro and a Corvette at auction is another.

In the end, and I am being careful as this is the point you aren’t getting, GM designed a car to satisfy the true Camaro faithful. From what I’ve been told, normal customer clinics were pretty much not done as the customer was to satisfy Camaro enthusiasts. It was not designed as a broad market car. Marketing or advertising doesn’t work when you’ve locked in on your customer. In this case GM bet wrong. Go back to 2013 or so and read my posts. Make a great coupe first then a Camaro. GM did a great Camaro first and what was left was a compromised coupe. All the advertising in the world can’t overcome that,

Love it that you love your Camaro. In 2015 there was not a person on this site that wanted a Gen6 more than I did. But GM sacrificed so many things to give you your best Camaro ever that they missed me wanting a great coupe. And your first step to recovery is simply acknowledging my opinion of the Gen6 Camaro matters as much as yours. Can you?

I’m still trying to figure out where this Camaro as a coupe falls shorter than the rest of those 3rd and 4th gens that sold really well with - gasp - great advertising......

It’s like you seem to think the 6th gen just appeared out of nowhere as a small coupe with little back seat room and poor visibility and little useable trunk space...... And the third and 4th gens were Cadillac Fleetwoods???

I think the ‘69 was the last one you could make out in the back seat in without both of you being double jointed contortionists.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I’m still trying to figure out where this Camaro as a coupe falls shorter than the rest of those 3rd and 4th gens that sold really well with - gasp - great advertising......

It’s like you seem to think the 6th gen just appeared out of nowhere as a small coupe with little back seat room and poor visibility and little useable trunk space...... And the third and 4th gens were Cadillac Fleetwoods???

I think the ‘69 was the last one you could make out in the back seat in without both of you being double jointed contortionists.

Having owned one for 12 years, the 4th gen wasn't a great coupe either. For instance, if I were in the market for a v6 (or anything that wasn't primarily focussed on max performance), I probably wouldn't have bought an F-body as there were better choices. The Z28/SS performance made up for those trade-offs for me. The commercial you referenced was from '96 and if you look at the sales trends at that time and beyond, the sales were pretty poor and ultimately the car was cancelled: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...-living-color/

For what it's worth, the 4th gen actually had a usable back seat (for kids), where I'd classify the 6th gen as basically unusable. That may not matter to you, but it matters to me and takes away from how good the car is as a coupe.

I think some other factors in the current 6th gens poor sales are general trends in household income vs. cost of new cars (particularly for V8 Camaro), more competition, the market in general is moving away from cars (especially coupes), and also not everyone is a fan of the '19+ redesign to put it mildly.

Again, how could they possibly get better advertising at the launch of the 6th gen than MotorTrend Car of the Year, winning every road test competition, taking down the M4 in a Head2Head, universally praised by road test editors for it's performance/chassis dynamics, etc? The 4th gen never got that much positive attention from the magazines - sure it was exceptional in a straight line, but didn't outperform the competition in everything else (specifically handling). But in a lot of those reviews it also gets slammed for reasons that were just mentioned. There's a point of diminishing returns with advertising and once you get the potential customer into the dealer, they still need to pull the trigger on the purchase and get past the trade-offs (visibility, interior space, price, etc) for it to be worth it. If GM could put a commercial on TV and get back to selling 100k+ Camaro's per year, they would. I wish you were right about advertising because that would be an easy fix.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

Having owned one for 12 years, the 4th gen wasn't a great coupe either. For instance, if I were in the market for a v6 (or anything that wasn't primarily focussed on max performance), I probably wouldn't have bought an F-body as there were better choices. The Z28/SS performance made up for those trade-offs for me. The commercial you referenced was from '96 and if you look at the sales trends at that time and beyond, the sales were pretty poor and ultimately the car was cancelled: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...-living-color/

For what it's worth, the 4th gen actually had a usable back seat (for kids), where I'd classify the 6th gen as basically unusable. That may not matter to you, but it matters to me and takes away from how good the car is as a coupe.

I think some other factors in the current 6th gens poor sales are general trends in household income vs. cost of new cars (particularly for V8 Camaro), more competition, the market in general is moving away from cars (especially coupes), and also not everyone is a fan of the '19+ redesign to put it mildly.

Again, how could they possibly get better advertising at the launch of the 6th gen than MotorTrend Car of the Year, winning every road test competition, taking down the M4 in a Head2Head, universally praised by road test editors for it's performance/chassis dynamics, etc? The 4th gen never got that much positive attention from the magazines - sure it was exceptional in a straight line, but didn't outperform the competition in everything else (specifically handling). But in a lot of those reviews it also gets slammed for reasons that were just mentioned. There's a point of diminishing returns with advertising and once you get the potential customer into the dealer, they still need to pull the trigger on the purchase and get past the trade-offs (visibility, interior space, price, etc) for it to be worth it. If GM could put a commercial on TV and get back to selling 100k+ Camaro's per year, they would. I wish you were right about advertising because that would be an easy fix.

The ads I was referring to was The Heartbeat Of America which was 3rd gen, and the kids guessing passing cars by their engine sound which was 1993-95 early 4th gen.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The ads I was referring to was The Heartbeat Of America which was 3rd gen, and the kids guessing passing cars by their engine sound which was 1993-95 early 4th gen.

I missed the Heartbeat ones. Some of those were pretty good. The kids guessing one was for the 1996 model year.

[samurai]

Originally Posted by Number 3

In the end, and I am being careful as this is the point you aren’t getting, GM designed a car to satisfy the true Camaro faithful. From what I’ve been told, normal customer clinics were pretty much not done as the customer was to satisfy Camaro enthusiasts. It was not designed as a broad market car. Marketing or advertising doesn’t work when you’ve locked in on your customer. In this case GM bet wrong. Go back to 2013 or so and read my posts. Make a great coupe first then a Camaro. GM did a great Camaro first and what was left was a compromised coupe. All the advertising in the world can’t overcome that,

Love it that you love your Camaro. In 2015 there was not a person on this site that wanted a Gen6 more than I did. But GM sacrificed so many things to give you your best Camaro ever that they missed me wanting a great coupe. And your first step to recovery is simply acknowledging my opinion of the Gen6 Camaro matters as much as yours. Can you?

Thank you for this post, now I got your point. I totally agree that the Camaro is not appealing to the widest amount of customers through the aggressive design and the impracticability - You know something is wrong when the Corvette has more cargo space than the Camaro. But they still offer great performance for the money, so they still have customers they can target - People who care more about performance than practical value.

Look how much hype the C8 got because of the "under 3s" line. Ford did the same with announcing 18 GT does 0-60 in under 4s. Chevy could market the Camaro with the performance numbers they have, because they are best in class.

5th Gen Camaro outsold Mustang and Challenger and wasn't more practical either. I would argue that the car build up a lot of hype through the presence in Transformers and Hawaii Five O.

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Not sure about where you guys are but Chevy and Dodge don't seem to be putting anything into the market around the Toronto area there is one V8 Camaro new within a 100 km and nothing but v6 Challengers

My brother has been shopping around for a new summer car. He wants to go Mustang. I told him to make sure he drives all 3 as he will know the car that is right for him when he drives it. But it's almost impossible to do so in this market.

It seems like they don't wanna compete for sales and there are Mustangs everywhere With the V8 and auto or manual transmission whatever you want

I hope things change I drive a Mustang now but I'm still a Camaro fan and I could see myself getting one in the future as long as the model sticks around

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

Not sure about where you guys are but Chevy and Dodge don't seem to be putting anything into the market around the Toronto area there is one V8 Camaro new within a 100 km and nothing but v6 Challengers

My brother has been shopping around for a new summer car. He wants to go Mustang. I told him to make sure he drives all 3 as he will know the car that is right for him when he drives it. But it's almost impossible to do so in this market.

It seems like they don't wanna compete for sales and there are Mustangs everywhere With the V8 and auto or manual transmission whatever you want

I hope things change I drive a Mustang now but I'm still a Camaro fan and I could see myself getting one in the future as long as the model sticks around

Dodge commercials are endless here in the Cleveland market. And they're awsome at that. The Dodge dealer right down the street from me always has a huge selection of Challengers in every trim and color from base V6 to SRT in both stick and automatic. Honestly, if I wasn't a lifelong Camaro guy and didn't think FCA's quality/reliability wasn't as good as GM's, I'd probably have seriously considered a Challenger. Both cars are equally cool.

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Dodge commercials are endless here in the Cleveland market. And they're awsome at that. The Dodge dealer right down the street from me always has a huge selection of Challengers in every trim and color from base V6 to SRT in both stick and automatic. Honestly, if I wasn't a lifelong Camaro guy and didn't think FCA's quality/reliability wasn't as good as GM's, I'd probably have seriously considered a Challenger. Both cars are equally cool.

You're lucky you have so many around challengers are awesome. I love all 3 and I would be happy with any of them

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Dodge commercials are endless here in the Cleveland market. And they're awsome at that. The Dodge dealer right down the street from me always has a huge selection of Challengers in every trim and color from base V6 to SRT in both stick and automatic. Honestly, if I wasn't a lifelong Camaro guy and didn't think FCA's quality/reliability wasn't as good as GM's, I'd probably have seriously considered a Challenger. Both cars are equally cool.

We spent a day in Cleveland with wifey during our "summer wellbeing days" road trip last week, and all I saw was Challengers everywhere, a few Chargers, mostly v6, a single Camaro and maybe one or two Mustangs. Small sample size, I know, but does confirm your point.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

We spent a day in Cleveland with wifey during our "summer wellbeing days" road trip last week, and all I saw was Challengers everywhere, a few Chargers, mostly v6, a single Camaro and maybe one or two Mustangs. Small sample size, I know, but does confirm your point.

Great commercials and sufficient stock.

But some people with 50 college degrees insist the Camaro is not worth advertising money.

It was like pulling teeth to get my Camaro, I'm glad and happy to have it but GM does seriously suck in a lot of ways other companies don't.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by samurai

Thank you for this post, now I got your point. I totally agree that the Camaro is not appealing to the widest amount of customers through the aggressive design and the impracticability - You know something is wrong when the Corvette has more cargo space than the Camaro. But they still offer great performance for the money, so they still have customers they can target - People who care more about performance than practical value.

Look how much hype the C8 got because of the "under 3s" line. Ford did the same with announcing 18 GT does 0-60 in under 4s. Chevy could market the Camaro with the performance numbers they have, because they are best in class.

5th Gen Camaro outsold Mustang and Challenger and wasn't more practical either. I would argue that the car build up a lot of hype through the presence in Transformers and Hawaii Five O.

And that is kind of where the problem is

According to these numbers in this thread

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=515520

based on the numbers from 2016 and 2017 V-8 sales only make up 40% of total sales. I am sure it's a similar split for Mustang and Challenger. While both of those cars have dropped in sales as well nothing like Camaro has. Onyl thing I can think of is the base models make better coupes than the Camaro. Like Number 3 said GM made a choice and it appears to have backfired on them.

[genxer]

I goofed the reply formatting...
"samurai
'Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
In the end, and I am being careful as this is the point you aren’t getting, GM designed a car to satisfy the true Camaro faithful. From what I’ve been told, normal customer clinics were pretty much not done as the customer was to satisfy Camaro enthusiasts. It was not designed as a broad market car. Marketing or advertising doesn’t work when you’ve locked in on your customer. In this case GM bet wrong. Go back to 2013 or so and read my posts. Make a great coupe first then a Camaro. GM did a great Camaro first and what was left was a compromised coupe. All the advertising in the world can’t overcome that,

Love it that you love your Camaro. In 2015 there was not a person on this site that wanted a Gen6 more than I did. But GM sacrificed so many things to give you your best Camaro ever that they missed me wanting a great coupe. And your first step to recovery is simply acknowledging my opinion of the Gen6 Camaro matters as much as yours. Can you?'

Thank you for this post, now I got your point. I totally agree that the Camaro is not appealing to the widest amount of customers through the aggressive design and the impracticability - You know something is wrong when the Corvette has more cargo space than the Camaro. But they still offer great performance for the money, so they still have customers they can target - People who care more about performance than practical value.

Look how much hype the C8 got because of the "under 3s" line. Ford did the same with announcing 18 GT does 0-60 in under 4s. Chevy could market the Camaro with the performance numbers they have, because they are best in class.

5th Gen Camaro outsold Mustang and Challenger and wasn't more practical either. I would argue that the car build up a lot of hype through the presence in Transformers and Hawaii Five O."



3 statements caught my eye in the above (2 posters i know):
"5th Gen Camaro outsold Mustang and Challenger and wasn't more practical either." "the (6th gen) customer was to satisfy Camaro enthusiasts." "Make a great coupe first then a Camaro."

Appealing to a herd from shaky premises won't work. 5th gen had pent up demand that would overlook inconveniences. And had wanted a Chevelle role car that basks in the 1st gen's legacy. Long-term, that outward size won't appeal to enough low trim daily drivers. The performance enthusiast competition baited GM to make the 6th a caricature of what it is. Besides arguing a miss on styling design: Is it a MotorTrend winning M4 fighter? Not really. Is it a big cruiser that belongs around Nascar ovals? Not really. Are the low trim cars appealing? No.

What's a great coupe? Make a better Camaro first that becomes the great coupe. That needed to start with the base cars.

[V8 Firebird]

Haven't these dealers cleaned the stocks of Corvette C7 out ?

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

Not sure about where you guys are but Chevy and Dodge don't seem to be putting anything into the market around the Toronto area there is one V8 Camaro new within a 100 km and nothing but v6 Challengers

My brother has been shopping around for a new summer car. He wants to go Mustang. I told him to make sure he drives all 3 as he will know the car that is right for him when he drives it. But it's almost impossible to do so in this market.

It seems like they don't wanna compete for sales and there are Mustangs everywhere With the V8 and auto or manual transmission whatever you want

I hope things change I drive a Mustang now but I'm still a Camaro fan and I could see myself getting one in the future as long as the model sticks around

Down here in Houston, they are everywhere. If you're in a pack of cars, I promise you, there will be at least one of each, Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger.

When we get Scatpack, or a Hellcat in at the dealership, it is typically sold before it gets out of PDI.