[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I see it but I just think that any reference that the 5th or 6th Gen Shelby sees the Corvette as a direct competitor or Corvette sees the Shelby is misleading at best. The only thing I will give you is they are similar in price.

I get your point with regard to the SVT products. I could have been more clear about pointing out that while Ford was doing the SVT products, some with the Shelby name, Shelby American was producing a whole different, more potent line of "Shelby" products that were definitely in place to compete with Corvette and Porsche. They were pushing out 450 - 800+ hp Shelby Mustangs when the 505 hp Z06 was a "gamechanger".

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...shelby-1000-2/

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by rocket403

In the early 60's Ford brought Shelby in to get back at Ferrari and turn around their GT40 program after they asked Shelby to turn their mundane 6cyl Mustang into something more than it was. Shelby took it to SCCA championships over the Vette. The GT500 was never a direct competitor to the Vette but mags would always put the biggest of Ford to the biggest Chevy.

The Camaro is the direct competition too the Mustang today but Camaro is not the top that Chevy has to offer so again we have top vs top comparison even if they really are not focused to compete against the other.

Question is Chevy going to make any changes with Camaro the platform is tight so they could leave it alone and add more engine to put the Camaro back on top, but Chevy has it's top car and has always made sure that nothing else would step on the Vette's toes.

I always wondered what was said when Buick and Pontiac had the faster cars and did anyone loose their job when the Vette was dethroned by the GN or Firebird.

This is how I feel. If Ford really wanted to target Corvette performance they would have done so with a standalone much lighter 2 seat designed model, similar to what Dodge did with the Viper. The fact that they never have shows they have little ambition to get into that already well established arena. They have focused their attention on the Camaro and Challenger and select BMW models.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I get your point with regard to the SVT products. I could have been more clear about pointing out that while Ford was doing the SVT products, some with the Shelby name, Shelby American was producing a whole different, more potent line of "Shelby" products that were definitely in place to compete with Corvette and Porsche. They were pushing out 450 - 800+ hp Shelby Mustangs when the 505 hp Z06 was a "gamechanger".

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...shelby-1000-2/

So when Camaro bumped HP to 580 then 650 were they targeting Corvette or were they upping the bar against the Mustang?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

This is how I feel. If Ford really wanted to target Corvette performance they would have done so with a standalone much lighter 2 seat designed model, similar to what Dodge did with the Viper. The fact that they never have shows they have little ambition to get into that already well established arena. They have focused their attention on the Camaro and Challenger and select BMW models.

I'm sure they've thought about it more than once. But then they would have had to support two single nameplate architectures. No bean-counter would ever allow that. GM went that route for a long time until moving Camaro to Zeta and then Alpha platforms. Both shared with other vehicles. Even so, Corvette was cancelled and revived more than once.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So when Camaro bumped HP to 580 then 650 were they targeting Corvette or were they upping the bar against the Mustang?

Upping the ante vs Mustang plus Option #3. Remember, the team that develops engines for Camaro also develops them for Corvette. They knew what was loaded in the chamber. Plus, Tadge had already taken the handcuffs off the Camaro team. They did not have to dumb down to protect Corvette. But then there is that supercharger size thing.....

The interesting thing in all of this.... in all the time that we provided intel to Camaro and Corvette teams, the one they were least interested in was.....Challenger.

[rocket403]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The interesting thing in all of this.... in all the time that we provided intel to Camaro and Corvette teams, the one they were least interested in was.....Challenger.

I guess they dropped the ball then because with Challenger eating Chevy's lunch and outselling their new Camaro with huge numbers they have painted themselves into the corner.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by rocket403

In the early 60's Ford brought Shelby in to get back at Ferrari and turn around their GT40 program after they asked Shelby to turn their mundane 6cyl Mustang into something more than it was. Shelby took it to SCCA championships over the Vette. The GT500 was never a direct competitor to the Vette but mags would always put the biggest of Ford to the biggest Chevy.

The Camaro is the direct competition too the Mustang today but Camaro is not the top that Chevy has to offer so again we have top vs top comparison even if they really are not focused to compete against the other.

Question is Chevy going to make any changes with Camaro the platform is tight so they could leave it alone and add more engine to put the Camaro back on top, but Chevy has it's top car and has always made sure that nothing else would step on the Vette's toes.

I always wondered what was said when Buick and Pontiac had the faster cars and did anyone loose their job when the Vette was dethroned by the GN or Firebird.

Ahhhh, the good ol' days... When I first started at GM as a co-op student at Buick, we had game boards tracking Buick sales vs Oldsmobile sales. Even as a 17 yr old college student I thought that was really bizarre and counter productive. Toyota must've been laughing their asses off.

The GN hurt a lot of feelings at Pontiac and Chevrolet. When I got my first Vette, a friend had a GN. His "stock" went up in the eyes of management. I got the side-eye. Which was an improvement from the times I used to show up to work in a Mustang I eventually bought a Skyhawk and left the Mustangs at home. Then all was well with the world, but I digress.

When I started at Buick, Lloyd Reuss (Mark's dad) was Chief Engineer of Buick. He had a secret project going to develop a 2-seat sports car for Buick. Very hush-hush project. When he left to become Chief Engineer at Chevrolet, the plans got shelved. Then he came back as General Manager of Buick and the plans were dusted off and the Buick Reatta was born.
Those were very interesting times.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

When I started at Buick, Lloyd Reuss (Mark's dad) was Chief Engineer of Buick. He had a secret project going to develop a 2-seat sports car for Buick. Very hush-hush project. When he left to become Chief Engineer at Chevrolet, the plans got shelved. Then he came back as General Manager of Buick and the plans were dusted off and the Buick Reatta was born.
Those were very interesting times.

While in college, I was worked part-time for a market research firm and was involved with a focus group with a very early display prototype of the Reatta. IIRC, the focus group was mostly directed towards the name of the vehicle.

"Sports Car" is definitely a stretch when applied to the Reatta, even for the late 80s...

[Bosse'sBoss]

Dodge Challenger and Charger continue to be heavy pork weight straight line only racers, very unstable and heavy cars for the curves. Unless Dodge is willing to apply their Viper's ACR tech and reduce weight of their cars.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

Dodge Challenger and Charger continue to be heavy pork weight straight line only racers, very unstable and heavy cars for the curves. Unless Dodge is willing to apply their Viper's ACR tech and reduce weight of their cars.

Hope they do.

[rocket403]

There have been some noise about a an ACR Challenger that could be introduced for next year but it would be on the same platform, Ralph Gilles just sold his Demon and said something bigger was coming to take it's place.

The size of the Challenger/Charger is what draws people to them that and large selection of engines as well, and now with the Mustang close to or over 4k the weight of the Challenger does not seem out of line.

I park my Challenger beside my 80 Cutlass and the size of both is very comparable, the Cutlass has a full frame and thicker steel and weighs in at 3900lbs, current tech and regs adds a huge amount of weight to these new cars, the only way to get down is to make everything smaller or add huge cost to go to much lighter alloys

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

Dodge Challenger and Charger continue to be heavy pork weight straight line only racers, very unstable and heavy cars for the curves. Unless Dodge is willing to apply their Viper's ACR tech and reduce weight of their cars.

I also would rather have a Camaro, but for 90% of the way these cars are really driven , the Mopars certainly generate more interest and have a bigger following. Camaro screwed up with 6th gen primarily because no immediate visual difference compared to the 5th gen, and did not address the high belt line. The 6th gen is way better than the 5th, but no one cared and you could not see it.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by rocket403

There have been some noise about a an ACR Challenger that could be introduced for next year but it would be on the same platform, Ralph Gilles just sold his Demon and said something bigger was coming to take it's place.

The size of the Challenger/Charger is what draws people to them that and large selection of engines as well, and now with the Mustang close to or over 4k the weight of the Challenger does not seem out of line.

I park my Challenger beside my 80 Cutlass and the size of both is very comparable, the Cutlass has a full frame and thicker steel and weighs in at 3900lbs, current tech and regs adds a huge amount of weight to these new cars, the only way to get down is to make everything smaller or add huge cost to go to much lighter alloys

You must have 500lbs of junk in your Cutlass, they weigh 3400lbs, or 800lbs lighter than your R/T:

https://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

https://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2010...e-2D-R-T/Specs

Had a Hellcat in my garage while my professional detailer was doing paint corrections and ceramic coating to it - footprint was longer and wider than our 2014 ML350 we owned at that time. Loved the car, sounded amazing starting in a garage. They ride incredibly smooth due to the weight, and offer the most room being the largest of the 3 "pony" cars.

As you stated earlier - GM and Ford should be paying close attention to the Challenger's success. It is painfully obvious that HP and straight line racing matters more for sales than anything else in the market. I am not strictly a drag racer, so I am in the smaller percentage who prefers cars that are lighter and handle well.

[rocket403]

I had my 80 Cutlass weigh in on a truck scale we had in my town with tank of gas and a 6.6L 200R4 trans full Dual Exhaust that was the weight, my friend with an 84 Hurst Olds 5.0L was 3700 or so, not sure how they say that it is 3400.

I did look up an 80 Cutlass with the 5.7L Diesel engine I guess dry weight would be 3550lbs so mine would be close to that plus fuel I guess.

Curb weight on my Challenger is 4000lbs so I woulld say max is 500lbs vs Curb weight