Autocross Videos - Tips and Discussion - Page 64

DaveC113 · 09-24-2021, 05:45 PM

Nice finish @joelster!

Any tips for the course I'm running on Sunday?

I like PPIR courses much better than some of the short but very technical courses we often run at another venue. This may be ~80 sec!

IntegraR0064 · 10-08-2021, 03:32 PM

So what's the current consensus on hot BS (maybe FS) setup for an SS 1LE? I've read through the thread but it's been a little time since it was last discussed.

Seems like Falkens in 275/30/19 and 305/30/19 is the answer? Or has anybody tried 305/315?

Any thoughts on sway bar? Would prefer to keep them stock if it isn't a significant difference.

For camber I'm thinking I'll max the front and leave the rear at around 2 degrees.

I did one autocross in completely stock form on stock tires. It was very fast and felt balanced. Definitely could use a tire that worked better in colder conditions though.

Msquared · 10-08-2021, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntegraR0064

So what's the current consensus on hot BS (maybe FS) setup for an SS 1LE? I've read through the thread but it's been a little time since it was last discussed.

Seems like Falkens in 275/30/19 and 305/30/19 is the answer? Or has anybody tried 305/315?

Any thoughts on sway bar? Would prefer to keep them stock if it isn't a significant difference.

For camber I'm thinking I'll max the front and leave the rear at around 2 degrees.

I did one autocross in completely stock form on stock tires. It was very fast and felt balanced. Definitely could use a tire that worked better in colder conditions though.

I am not a "hot" B Street driver by any means, but here's what I observed at Nationals:

Most people are adding either BMR or Hotchkiss adjustable front sway bar. The BMR has the advantage of being very close to stock rates at its softest setting, and the possible disadvantage of needing a different or modified D-bushing setup. The works well on the stock bar, but it may be helpful to trade a little front grip for more rear grip.

Several people came to SCCA Nationals with 305/315 Falkens, and one of them (our own Apexit53) came within a couple tenths of winning the jacket in BS (he beat three other national champions to take a close 2nd). It's probably close to a toss-up on either size combo, but I will be trying the larger combo for my next set. To my knowledge, nobody has tested both combos back to back on the same car/course/day. The Falkens are definitely faster than the stock Goodyears and put down power a lot better. They are also faster than the BFG Rival S and the (out of production) RE71R. The Yokohama A052 doesn't really come in a good size for our cars, and even if it did I think it would be a very drama-filled choice.*

Yes, I agree with maxing your front camber. This is especially helpful with the Falkens, and probably even more so if you use the 305 up front. If you can get more than -2.0 rear camber while retaining 0 toe, then your car is better than mine! I'd use whatever it will allow you to use, just don't let it go to toe out (that's the limiting factor for rear camber).

*The winning M2 in BS was soaking his Yoks in ice-water-soaked towels between runs, and some people in other classes were changing tires between every run! **** that. SCCA should ban this tire from Street classes. It's ridiculous.

clyde · 10-08-2021, 08:50 PM

Mostly echo Matt.

Best tires this year were definitely Falkens. Dunno about next year. Sounds like there's a good chance there will be more options. I ran 305/315 RT660s once i got them just before Nats and have no regrets. Leeder was running a smaller combo earlier in the year, but showed up with 305/315s in Lincoln. I'm not sure he felt like it was the right or wrong call.

On my car, camber is maxed at about -2.6 in front along with 0 toe. Rear camber is -2.0 and .11 degrees total toe in (.05 and .06 IIRC). No bar and I'm not sure it needs one.

IntegraR0064 · 10-09-2021, 08:56 AM

Thanks Msquared and clyde! Super helpful.

Yeah I'd love to hear what Mike thought of the bigger tires. Based on experience in the past with other cars, I would guess the 305/315 is faster but feels less precise. I've been autocrossing a very long time and generally every time we've tested it putting enough tire that you're just a bit beyond the manufacturer recommendations is the best for stock/street class. Only exception would be if it throws the car's computers off I think, or if the gearing is worse. But my calculations are as follows and both are within a 1% split from stock so I'd think they should both be fine computers-wise. And gearing I don't think is a big deal, we have a lot of power.
Stock->305/315 19's: -1.9% front, -2.9% rear
Stock->275/305 19's: -4.5% front, -3.7% rear

About the yokos, I think it's a bit overblown. I was in STR at nats and we've been running yokos since they came out so I have a lot of experience with them there. And I was talking to Tony Chow at nats, it seemed like whatever he was doing for tire management wasn't working (he just overrode it with driving really well like he tends to do). The changing tires every run thing has been around for a long time for people who want to get every advantage possible and has always been helpful because of the seam sealer/opr stuff at nats. The yoks are just even better for this because they're such a good tire they're good on the first run - usually you're trading off cold tires with less OPR buildup. Anyway probably shouldn't get too much into the yoko drama since we can't even use them on these cars in street. I could see wanting them out of street due to limited sizes but they definitely should stay in ST, they're my favorite tire ever.

Back to camaro things, sounds like there's not much consensus about toe. I would assume like most RWD cars we will want a little bit of toe in in rear, like clyde said. I'm currently on the chevy "track alignment". I thought it was 2 degrees camber in rear but looks like i was wrong, so I currently have 1.3 in the rear (and 2.0 in the front). And it's 0.1 degrees per side of rear toe, 0.2 total. I could see going down a little in toe to get more camber but zero seems aggressive. Guess I'll see what camber I can pull off while retaining .05 per side of rear toe in. I do like the alignment balance as is, just additional grip all around would always be nice

.

This car is mainly an SCCA time trials S2 car for me so I'm trying to not mess that up, just swap wheels to square 19x11's for track without having to change anything else is the goal. So a little bit of toe for high speed stability is a good plan for me I think.

Anyway appreciate the help. Hoping Mike can chip in with what he thought of the bigger tires and what sway bar setting he was on for them (hoping it's on the low end so I can just stay stock sway bar).

clyde · 10-09-2021, 01:48 PM

FWIW, it seems like there are some production tolerances with significant effect on rear alignment range. Some cars can get a few more tenths camber than -2.0 while keeping a total .1 (or more toe in at the rear while some can't get -2.0 camber with 0 toe. I could get a little more of both than I have, but it was where I wanted to start...and was happy enough to stick with it.

On tires, I'm not sure the size difference from OE matters as much to the computers as much as the percentage difference between F/R diameters. The 305/315 RT660s are pretty close to OE and we've found the computers *seem* happy enough to not get much hard pedal or unpredictable eLSD behavior. When we've had 305 RE71s all around on or I've played with the 285 Michelin all seasons all around I use for winters and poor man's rain tires, there's been a lot more hard pedal and less consistent eLSD.

CRBWS6 · 11-02-2021, 07:28 PM

FYI - Here's what Apexit53 said a few pages back re: 305/315 at Nationals:

I have the rest of the season to test but I am not sold on the 305 front and 315 rear setup. Car felt way too squishy and unresponsive. But, also could be I had zero seat time on this setup, just like anything it takes seat time to know what the car will do when I want it to.

Glad to see that the 305/315 combo worked well in general.

I can affirm the rear camber/toe relationship. My car was only able to achieve -1.4 rear camber at 0.1deg toe in per side. And unknowingly running with significant toe rear OUT (0.4deg per side) for my first season made me question my driving skills!

KorryB · 11-03-2021, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntegraR0064

So what's the current consensus on hot BS (maybe FS) setup for an SS 1LE? I've read through the thread but it's been a little time since it was last discussed.

Seems like Falkens in 275/30/19 and 305/30/19 is the answer? Or has anybody tried 305/315?

Any thoughts on sway bar? Would prefer to keep them stock if it isn't a significant difference.

For camber I'm thinking I'll max the front and leave the rear at around 2 degrees.

I did one autocross in completely stock form on stock tires. It was very fast and felt balanced. Definitely could use a tire that worked better in colder conditions though.

This question has become relevant to my interests.

94boosted · 12-08-2021, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clyde

On tires, I'm not sure the size difference from OE matters as much to the computers as much as the percentage difference between F/R diameters. The 305/315 RT660s are pretty close to OE and we've found the computers *seem* happy enough to not get much hard pedal or unpredictable eLSD behavior. When we've had 305 RE71s all around on or I've played with the 285 Michelin all seasons all around I use for winters and poor man's rain tires, there's been a lot more hard pedal and less consistent eLSD.

Ironically this year I got more hard pedal/ice mode running 275/305 Falkens than I had in the previous two years running square 305 RE71R's. Doesn't make much sense to me

On another note, I'm sure most already know, but it finally happened

Msquared · 12-08-2021, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94boosted

On another note, I'm sure most already know, but it finally happened

Someone started a thread just for that topic.

94boosted · 12-08-2021, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Msquared

Someone started a thread just for that topic.

Whoops, my bad.

clyde · 12-08-2021, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94boosted

Ironically this year I got more hard pedal/ice mode running 275/305 Falkens than I had in the previous two years running square 305 RE71R's. Doesn't make much sense to me

That is so weird. Computers

94boosted · 01-27-2022, 08:51 AM

Anyone with an SS1LE going to the Las Vegas Tour April 1-3 that wouldn't mind a tire warmer? It's a 24hr tow in each direction for me so I'd much rather fly and drive

Mister_2 · 02-13-2022, 06:09 PM

I picked up my 2019 ZLE in January 2021 and had a great time learning to handle all that power at autocross. I've been doing autocross for a number of years but handling all this power on a tight technical course was a great lesson in throttle management! I placed very well in my first season with it and I'm going to shoot for the overall win in our local series for 2022.

A few fun courses we ran this year:

https://youtu.be/G6MjVUWvmtM

https://youtu.be/79-_OMcc-RE

https://youtu.be/9C5sClDTo3M

10-08-2021, 03:32 PM	#884
IntegraR0064 Drives: 2019 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Near Philly Posts: 64	So what's the current consensus on hot BS (maybe FS) setup for an SS 1LE? I've read through the thread but it's been a little time since it was last discussed. Seems like Falkens in 275/30/19 and 305/30/19 is the answer? Or has anybody tried 305/315? Any thoughts on sway bar? Would prefer to keep them stock if it isn't a significant difference. For camber I'm thinking I'll max the front and leave the rear at around 2 degrees. I did one autocross in completely stock form on stock tires. It was very fast and felt balanced. Definitely could use a tire that worked better in colder conditions though. __________________ -Jon 2019 SS 1LE doing work as a SCCA S2 Time Trials car and FS autocross car

10-08-2021, 08:50 PM	#886
clyde Drives: broken Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: DC Posts: 186	Mostly echo Matt. Best tires this year were definitely Falkens. Dunno about next year. Sounds like there's a good chance there will be more options. I ran 305/315 RT660s once i got them just before Nats and have no regrets. Leeder was running a smaller combo earlier in the year, but showed up with 305/315s in Lincoln. I'm not sure he felt like it was the right or wrong call. On my car, camber is maxed at about -2.6 in front along with 0 toe. Rear camber is -2.0 and .11 degrees total toe in (.05 and .06 IIRC). No bar and I'm not sure it needs one. __________________ clyde Team WTF?! what are you gonna do? :dunno:

10-09-2021, 08:56 AM	#887
IntegraR0064 Drives: 2019 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Near Philly Posts: 64	Thanks Msquared and clyde! Super helpful. Yeah I'd love to hear what Mike thought of the bigger tires. Based on experience in the past with other cars, I would guess the 305/315 is faster but feels less precise. I've been autocrossing a very long time and generally every time we've tested it putting enough tire that you're just a bit beyond the manufacturer recommendations is the best for stock/street class. Only exception would be if it throws the car's computers off I think, or if the gearing is worse. But my calculations are as follows and both are within a 1% split from stock so I'd think they should both be fine computers-wise. And gearing I don't think is a big deal, we have a lot of power. Stock->305/315 19's: -1.9% front, -2.9% rear Stock->275/305 19's: -4.5% front, -3.7% rear About the yokos, I think it's a bit overblown. I was in STR at nats and we've been running yokos since they came out so I have a lot of experience with them there. And I was talking to Tony Chow at nats, it seemed like whatever he was doing for tire management wasn't working (he just overrode it with driving really well like he tends to do). The changing tires every run thing has been around for a long time for people who want to get every advantage possible and has always been helpful because of the seam sealer/opr stuff at nats. The yoks are just even better for this because they're such a good tire they're good on the first run - usually you're trading off cold tires with less OPR buildup. Anyway probably shouldn't get too much into the yoko drama since we can't even use them on these cars in street. I could see wanting them out of street due to limited sizes but they definitely should stay in ST, they're my favorite tire ever. Back to camaro things, sounds like there's not much consensus about toe. I would assume like most RWD cars we will want a little bit of toe in in rear, like clyde said. I'm currently on the chevy "track alignment". I thought it was 2 degrees camber in rear but looks like i was wrong, so I currently have 1.3 in the rear (and 2.0 in the front). And it's 0.1 degrees per side of rear toe, 0.2 total. I could see going down a little in toe to get more camber but zero seems aggressive. Guess I'll see what camber I can pull off while retaining .05 per side of rear toe in. I do like the alignment balance as is, just additional grip all around would always be nice . This car is mainly an SCCA time trials S2 car for me so I'm trying to not mess that up, just swap wheels to square 19x11's for track without having to change anything else is the goal. So a little bit of toe for high speed stability is a good plan for me I think. Anyway appreciate the help. Hoping Mike can chip in with what he thought of the bigger tires and what sway bar setting he was on for them (hoping it's on the low end so I can just stay stock sway bar). __________________ -Jon 2019 SS 1LE doing work as a SCCA S2 Time Trials car and FS autocross car Last edited by IntegraR0064; 10-09-2021 at 09:27 AM.

10-09-2021, 01:48 PM	#888
clyde Drives: broken Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: DC Posts: 186	FWIW, it seems like there are some production tolerances with significant effect on rear alignment range. Some cars can get a few more tenths camber than -2.0 while keeping a total .1 (or more toe in at the rear while some can't get -2.0 camber with 0 toe. I could get a little more of both than I have, but it was where I wanted to start...and was happy enough to stick with it. On tires, I'm not sure the size difference from OE matters as much to the computers as much as the percentage difference between F/R diameters. The 305/315 RT660s are pretty close to OE and we've found the computers seem happy enough to not get much hard pedal or unpredictable eLSD behavior. When we've had 305 RE71s all around on or I've played with the 285 Michelin all seasons all around I use for winters and poor man's rain tires, there's been a lot more hard pedal and less consistent eLSD. __________________ clyde Team WTF?! what are you gonna do? :dunno:

11-02-2021, 07:28 PM	#889
CRBWS6 Drives: 18 1SS 1LE SCCA FS, 99 WS-6, E46 M3 Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: PHX Posts: 86	FYI - Here's what Apexit53 said a few pages back re: 305/315 at Nationals: I have the rest of the season to test but I am not sold on the 305 front and 315 rear setup. Car felt way too squishy and unresponsive. But, also could be I had zero seat time on this setup, just like anything it takes seat time to know what the car will do when I want it to. Glad to see that the 305/315 combo worked well in general. I can affirm the rear camber/toe relationship. My car was only able to achieve -1.4 rear camber at 0.1deg toe in per side. And unknowingly running with significant toe rear OUT (0.4deg per side) for my first season made me question my driving skills! __________________

01-27-2022, 08:51 AM	#895
94boosted Drives: ‘17 1LE, ‘17 BMW 340, ‘18 F-150 Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 238	Anyone with an SS1LE going to the Las Vegas Tour April 1-3 that wouldn't mind a tire warmer? It's a 24hr tow in each direction for me so I'd much rather fly and drive __________________ 2017 - SS 1LE 2015 - 2SS, RS, NPP, 1LE - Sold

02-13-2022, 06:09 PM	#896
Mister_2 Drives: 2019 Chevy Camaro ZL1 1LE Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 5	I picked up my 2019 ZLE in January 2021 and had a great time learning to handle all that power at autocross. I've been doing autocross for a number of years but handling all this power on a tight technical course was a great lesson in throttle management! I placed very well in my first season with it and I'm going to shoot for the overall win in our local series for 2022. A few fun courses we ran this year: https://youtu.be/G6MjVUWvmtM https://youtu.be/79-_OMcc-RE https://youtu.be/9C5sClDTo3M

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