My new OBX headers :-)

[ss/rs-matt]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

However when presented with a set of overseas made Stainlessworks for the same $600-700 price...but a 2 year warranty..people suddenly realize it is only a few hundred more for an American made part and life time warranty and suddenly find the extra money. Strange how the mind works.

The stainless power header was my original choice, you had the best price I could find at $800. I would of bought them at $700. I thought about calling you and asking for a deal to match the OBX. Honestly though, I thought you would hang up on me..lol.

[CamaroCowboy]

Nahhh. They would not have hung up on you. The fact is they Knew I had OBX Headers when they sold me Kooks High Flow Cats and a Kooks Catback, but hey it's all about making the sale......

[MarylandSpeed]

Originally Posted by ss/rs-matt

The stainless power header was my original choice, you had the best price I could find at $800. I would of bought them at $700. I thought about calling you and asking for a deal to match the OBX. Honestly though, I thought you would hang up on me..lol.

I would have thought it was a prank call or something..haha.

[1sweet11SS]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

I would have thought it was a prank call or something..haha.

[bluetorp]

Having been on both sides of the "budget" vs. "premium" header fence, I guess I'll throw my two cents in.

When I first got into LS equipped vehicles with my 2002 T/A, I bought Pacesetter headers. I would have loved to put a set of ARH's on there, but I simply couldn't afford it. They were budget headers, but they were well built and designed. They fit great, and they performed. I had zero complaints about them and have no second thoughts about recommending them to anyone who is looking at a budget header for a 4th gen F-body. Budget headers fill a needed role in the marketplace, and budget does not have to mean crap.

That being said, a premium header is a premium header for a reason. Premium headers typically have things that budget headers do not, like hand smoothed ports, tuned length primaries, HVMCs, and collector spikes. They're usually stainless, and most budget headers are mild steel. All of these things add to cost. You're also paying for the additional R&D costs that come from developing a premium header, and in the case of Kooks and ARH, you're also paying more for the fact that the materials and workmanship are all sourced domestically. So no, they don't cost more just because Kooks or ARH feel like they can charge more- they cost more because they are legitimately more expensive to design and produce for all of the reasons above.

It also means that in most cases, a premium header will outperform a budget header. After a couple years, the elements made it through the ceramic coating on my Pacesetters and they started rusting up. My financial situation at that point was different, and I bought a set of ARH headers to replace the Pacesetters. Peak power with the ARH headers was about the same, but I made more torque and more power under the curve with them over the Pacesetters. I definitely felt that the additional performance was worth the extra cost.

Now, as regards the OBX headers: I've never seen a set in person, but they look like they go a bit beyond what's typical of a budget header. They also look suspiciously identical to Kooks. Without having a set of both in front of me, I certainly can't say that they are direct copies. If they in fact are, that alone, regardless of material, quality, or where they were made, would ensure that OBX never got any of my business. It's an unethical business practice, and copying another company's header design allows you to undercut that company in the marketplace by default, because you don't have to pay the R&D costs associated with designing that header. I'm not saying that OBX has done this, but if they have it's completely wrong, and I'll certainly stand up and say that nobody should buy OBX headers because of it. Has anyone actually taken any detailed dimensions and measurements to prove or disprove the similarity of the OBX header to the Kooks header?

All I can say is that they're stainless, the materials and craftsmanship look solid whatever the source, and they appear to have tuned length primaries. As budget headers go, that would make them pretty fantastic. No idea whether or not they have HVMCs or collector spikes. I'd call them a great option for someone who cannot afford (or does not want to pay for) Kooks or ARH, but if they are in fact direct copies of the Kooks header, then OBX doesn't deserve to sell a single set.

[MarylandSpeed]

Originally Posted by bluetorp

Now, as regards the OBX headers: I've never seen a set in person, but they look like they go a bit beyond what's typical of a budget header. They also look suspiciously identical to Kooks. Without having a set of both in front of me, I certainly can't say that they are direct copies. If they in fact are, that alone, regardless of material, quality, or where they were made, would ensure that OBX never got any of my business. It's an unethical business practice, and copying another company's header design allows you to undercut that company in the marketplace by default, because you don't have to pay the R&D costs associated with designing that header. I'm not saying that OBX has done this, but if they have it's completely wrong, and I'll certainly stand up and say that nobody should buy OBX headers because of it. Has anyone actually taken any detailed dimensions and measurements to prove or disprove the similarity of the OBX header to the Kooks header?

Here are pictures and a dyno test-

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123361

There are two headers in each picture...haha.




I would not call this a step above Pacesetter. But then again..the OP is claiming the set he got was better. Maybe it's a crapshoot?

[bluetorp]

Thanks for linking that, I hadn't seen your thread before. Your dyno runs between the two are pretty representative of what I saw going from Pacesetter to ARH on my LS1.

Yep, that looks like shit. The OP may have gotten a better constructed set, but my guess is the manufacturer's QC is pretty poor, so it's probably a matter of luck as to whether you get a good set or a bad one. My Pacesetters were indeed much better constructed than the OBXs in your comparison thread.

It's also painfully obvious they they are a blatant copy of the Kooks. As in not similar, but identical outside of workmanship. That pretty much decides the issue for me. I would certainly never give OBX any of my business, at any price point or workmanship standard.

I know opinions are like assholes, but in my opinion if you buy the OBX headers you're doing a disservice to Kooks, who spent the time and the money and leveraged their expertise in the development of that header design. Spend a little more and give your money to the company that actually deserves it, or buy a budget header from a company hasn't pirated their design from someone else, like Pacesetter.

[Anthony@ARH]

Originally Posted by bluetorp

Having been on both sides of the "budget" vs. "premium" header fence, I guess I'll throw my two cents in.

When I first got into LS equipped vehicles with my 2002 T/A, I bought Pacesetter headers. I would have loved to put a set of ARH's on there, but I simply couldn't afford it. They were budget headers, but they were well built and designed. They fit great, and they performed. I had zero complaints about them and have no second thoughts about recommending them to anyone who is looking at a budget header for a 4th gen F-body. Budget headers fill a needed role in the marketplace, and budget does not have to mean crap.

That being said, a premium header is a premium header for a reason. Premium headers typically have things that budget headers do not, like hand smoothed ports, tuned length primaries, HVMCs, and collector spikes. They're usually stainless, and most budget headers are mild steel. All of these things add to cost. You're also paying for the additional R&D costs that come from developing a premium header, and in the case of Kooks and ARH, you're also paying more for the fact that the materials and workmanship are all sourced domestically. So no, they don't cost more just because Kooks or ARH feel like they can charge more- they cost more because they are legitimately more expensive to design and produce for all of the reasons above.

It also means that in most cases, a premium header will outperform a budget header. After a couple years, the elements made it through the ceramic coating on my Pacesetters and they started rusting up. My financial situation at that point was different, and I bought a set of ARH headers to replace the Pacesetters. Peak power with the ARH headers was about the same, but I made more torque and more power under the curve with them over the Pacesetters. I definitely felt that the additional performance was worth the extra cost.

Now, as regards the OBX headers: I've never seen a set in person, but they look like they go a bit beyond what's typical of a budget header. They also look suspiciously identical to Kooks. Without having a set of both in front of me, I certainly can't say that they are direct copies. If they in fact are, that alone, regardless of material, quality, or where they were made, would ensure that OBX never got any of my business. It's an unethical business practice, and copying another company's header design allows you to undercut that company in the marketplace by default, because you don't have to pay the R&D costs associated with designing that header. I'm not saying that OBX has done this, but if they have it's completely wrong, and I'll certainly stand up and say that nobody should buy OBX headers because of it. Has anyone actually taken any detailed dimensions and measurements to prove or disprove the similarity of the OBX header to the Kooks header?

All I can say is that they're stainless, the materials and craftsmanship look solid whatever the source, and they appear to have tuned length primaries. As budget headers go, that would make them pretty fantastic. No idea whether or not they have HVMCs or collector spikes. I'd call them a great option for someone who cannot afford (or does not want to pay for) Kooks or ARH, but if they are in fact direct copies of the Kooks header, then OBX doesn't deserve to sell a single set.

Very well said and exactly on point with what the actual issue with is while arguement/ principle. Obx has been around for as long as I can remember in the import world. My first header was a pacesetter for a 91 nissan ser. The Obx have always been copies and if everyone jumps in that ship you'll neve get new product bc they don't/ can design it only copy and they do it well. However there are tell tale signs of an imported header. From a shop background where I used to order material to my welding engineering background you can spot Chinese a mile away. We have hours of r&d into out products, aquiring each car and popular options, dyno time, fixtures, tooling, training, hardware and getting certification to offer legal options. There is a lot going in behind the scenes. Ads forums, customer service, warrantee, shows that you have to be at back people don't ring our bell when we do a good job it's just expected. Rarely do I come across ARH duno/ did the right thing and went the extra mile either durning the sale or after. We go hard everyday to be the best we can be and produce the best for our customers. We aren't here for everyone and if you choose someone else keep it in the states that all we are looking for at the end of the day. It is about competition (come on that why we mod cars in the first place right?) let's keep on the same playing field that's all. Just wanted voice/ vent. I've been thru all these Obx/ xs power/ and the like on more applications you guy thought/think about. If I get beat tell me you like neck tie but compare apples to oranges which is what we always fall back into. Matt enjoy the car and your purchase. Take pride in all ventures and you will always get the best, in the end that's you can ask from yourself or the vendors here.

Thanks for the time guys

[TRIPWIRE]

stop ripping on Maryland speed he's a business that specifically sells american made quality products So it's wha he does whatever......some people are poor and don't want to pay double the money for the same power gains plus when you add the cost of getting a tune a lot of People can't afford to get a nice set of headers and a tune such as me thats why I got obx and I enjoy them with my tune very much

[ss/rs-matt]

Mine looked nothing like the one above. The first thing I did was check every single port visually and physically by running my fingers through them. It was like someone took a dye grinder to each port after welding it. I was very impressed.

I spoke with OBX on the phone and have no doubt if mine looked like that, they would of exchanged them.

[ss/rs-matt]

You can clearly see the grinder marks here.

[ss/rs-matt]

Here, I zoomed in on a couple

[mpyle007]

Im in business and I deal with this headache everyday. Here is the way it truly needs to be looked at. Yes, by purchasing an OBX product you can save money and still accomplish what most headers will. By purchasing a Kooks header, or other name brand header through a reputable dealer you are buying a peace of mind. You are buying the peace of mind that you are getting a quality header and have someone that will back you all the way should you have issues. For this peace of mind you spend more money but you have to look at it as insurance. Could you have problems with any header? Yes. Are some willing to gamble a bit more than others to save money? Yes. If you go to buy a diamond ring, they will sell it to you cheaper if you dont want a warranty or any sort of gaurantee. That is where some of the "quality control costs" are.

We are all entitled to make our own choices. I think Maryland Speed is just trying to educate most of you on this and you may be taking it the wrong way. He is fighting for a cause that he sees fit. Cant blame him for that.

If you want to save money by purchasing OBX headers then feel free to. If you want to buy an American made product to go on your Camaro having the peace of mind that you are buying a designer set of headers, will have no issues, and if so you have the backing of your dealer, then feel free to do so as well. Point is you DO get what you pay for. Whether it is in the product, the design, the customer service, or the way it came about.

If the Camaro was all made in the U.S then not many people would be able to afford it. It would be more expensive but then again there would be positive sides to that as well.

I understand where Maryland Speed is coming from. Unfortunately I think he is fighting a battle that he, I, or any business owner will never win. You have to let people make their own decisions and let the cards fall where they may.

I am in the process of buying headers and high flow cats. I talked with Ted at JRE Perfromance and he recommended some to me. I will be paying more for them but I have the peace of mind that I am getting a good quality product from a great company that if I need their help, they will be there to provide it.

Good, Better, Best and remember its not always about the product alone.

Lets get along and represent Camaro5 in a positive way!

[justa25thTA]

Originally Posted by TRIPWIRE

stop ripping on Maryland speed he's a business that specifically sells american made quality products So it's wha he does whatever......some people are poor and don't want to pay double the money for the same power gains plus when you add the cost of getting a tune a lot of People can't afford to get a nice set of headers and a tune such as me thats why I got obx and I enjoy them with my tune very much

you bought a 2SS and are using the "I'm poor" argument? More like "I'm cheap"