[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yes they COULD have done that, but why? If they dropped the 350/350R and made the PP2 a true 1LE competitor they could have

• Bragging rights for best showroom stock track car
• Marginally more GT PP2 sales at significantly less profit per vehicle than the 350/350R that got dropped

By going the direction they went they have

• Maintained availability of a car that transacts above MSRP and probably makes 5-digit profit
• No problems selling a car that performs at about 85 - 90% of its potential
• A fair number of irritated enthusiasts lamenting the factor that the GT PP2 can at best close the performance gap on its most logical competitor (1LE)

If you are Ford management, only the first option makes any sense at all. Do that and manage the GT350 / ZL1 discussion by promising that the GT500 is coming.....eventually.

It's the most expensive car in it's segment. It is also the only car that uses that 5.2 FPC engine. The drivetrain is not shared with any other Ford platform. 100% of the R&D cost and any potential profit has to come solely from the GT350. The engine has oil consumption issues. The engine has reliability issues. Ford is dealing with a class action lawsuit over this car. I can't say for certain but I find it hard to believe it's been a profit making endeavour.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

It's the most expensive car in it's segment. It is also the only car that uses that 5.2 FPC engine. The drivetrain is not shared with any other Ford platform. 100% of the R&D cost and any potential profit has to come solely from the GT350. The engine has oil consumption issues. The engine has reliability issues. Ford is dealing with a class action lawsuit over this car. I can't say for certain but I find it hard to believe it's been a profit making endeavour.

Just to be fair, I corrected my original statement AFTER you copied it, so I am noting the correction here.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

If you are Ford management, only the second option makes any sense at all. Do that and manage the GT350 / ZL1 discussion by promising that the GT500 is coming.....eventually.

I agree that they eat some investment cost on the FPC, but the GT500 shares some of the investment cost, since that engine is basically a boosted, cross-planed version of the GT350 engine. Being the most expensive in segment is irrelevant if consumers are paying the MSRP that was set with a built in profit margin. Just means that they are achieving at least their projected profit. The legal fees are an impact, but considering the fact that it is either internal or retained legal, only a portion of that is transactional. Most of it is fixed cost already accounted for. At least unless and until a class settlement amount is reached.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I'm guessing what he meant to say is you can buy a low option ZL1 for less than a GT350. Chevy has to offer discounts to move the new ZL1, Ford doesn't to move the now 3 yr old GT350. Price you actually pay for the ZL1 may be cheaper.

Nice jab. But, Ford does offer discounts so let's not act like they don't. GM offering discounts on the ZL1 is just icing on the cake. I don't think they have to necessarily. I would have bought mine without it. In fact I had already signed for mine before I knew about the 1st rebate. When I came back to finalize my papers they told me I got a second rebate. LOL!! And those discounts are a few thousand dollars at best. It makes no impact on the purchase of the car. If GM was dropping $10K-$15K off of it like you're trying to make it seem like then I would agree with you. $3K over the course of 5-7 years is nothing. And all of that just makes the ZL1 even more desirable. It comes in cheaper than the GT350, it'll beat the shit outta the GT350R, it offers way more options than either of the Shelby's, it isn't a fire hazard, it doesn't have oil consumption or overheating issues...I mean, Ford would have to drop the GT350 down to $40K to get me in one.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Nice jab. But, Ford does offer discounts so let's not act like they don't. GM offering discounts on the ZL1 is just icing on the cake. I don't think they have to necessarily. I would have bought mine without it. In fact I had already signed for mine before I knew about the 1st rebate. When I came back to finalize my papers they told me I got a second rebate. LOL!! And those discounts are a few thousand dollars at best. It makes no impact on the purchase of the car. If GM was dropping $10K-$15K off of it like you're trying to make it seem like then I would agree with you. $3K over the course of 5-7 years is nothing. And all of that just makes the ZL1 even more desirable. It comes in cheaper than the GT350, it'll beat the shit outta the GT350R, it offers way more options than either of the Shelby's, it isn't a fire hazard, it doesn't have oil consumption or overheating issues...I mean, Ford would have to drop the GT350 down to $40K to get me in one.

The GT350 is typically excluded from Ford discounts, as was the GT500. IIRC "X-plan" excludes the Shelby models and SVT vehicles.

[drew peacock]

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=102187

lol another problem already lol...idiots still buying them

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Nice jab. But, Ford does offer discounts so let's not act like they don't. GM offering discounts on the ZL1 is just icing on the cake. I don't think they have to necessarily. I would have bought mine without it. In fact I had already signed for mine before I knew about the 1st rebate. When I came back to finalize my papers they told me I got a second rebate. LOL!! And those discounts are a few thousand dollars at best. It makes no impact on the purchase of the car. If GM was dropping $10K-$15K off of it like you're trying to make it seem like then I would agree with you. $3K over the course of 5-7 years is nothing. And all of that just makes the ZL1 even more desirable. It comes in cheaper than the GT350, it'll beat the shit outta the GT350R, it offers way more options than either of the Shelby's, it isn't a fire hazard, it doesn't have oil consumption or overheating issues...I mean, Ford would have to drop the GT350 down to $40K to get me in one.

There is a reason Chevy offers discounts on the ZL1 to sell them. There is a reason Ford doesn't with the Shelby . It's the same reason why comparing used 2013 models the ZL1s value is nearly 25% less even though the msrp were similar. Its probably the same reason that almost every review of the ZL1 vs GT350r the conclusion was they preferred the Shelby.

[1295/SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

There is a reason Chevy offers discounts on the ZL1 to sell them. There is a reason Ford doesn't with the Shelby . It's the same reason why comparing used 2013 models the ZL1s value is nearly 25% less even though the msrp were similar. Its probably the same reason that almost every review of the ZL1 vs GT350r the conclusion was they preferred the Shelby.

Do you ever stop? Just go away. Regardless of what a subjective reviewer says he prefers, the bottom line is if you're in an R and a ZL1 pulls up next to you at a light, both know which is the better performer and since these are performance cars, who's smiling and who isn't?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

There is a reason Chevy offers discounts on the ZL1 to sell them. There is a reason Ford doesn't with the Shelby. It's the same reason why comparing used 2013 models the ZL1s value is nearly 25% less even though the msrp were similar. Its probably the same reason that almost every review of the ZL1 vs GT350r the conclusion was they preferred the Shelby.

Because Chevy builds enough to completely satisfy demand while Ford restricts production to create an ADM environment. The ZL1 is attainable.

Different reason. There is no question that rev-ing an engine to the point that the drivers seats, steering wheel and dash vibrate severely is a hoot. The down side...

Shoot through to the far side of the tach and the engine sends a mighty vibration through the pedals and the dash and your seat bottom.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...y-gt350-page-3

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Because Chevy builds enough to completely satisfy demand while Ford restricts production to create an ADM environment. The ZL1 is attainable.

have production #'s for the ZL1? Is GM just cranking them out? are there several ZL1's sitting at your local dealership? There is one at the dealerhsip near me, just like there is one Shelby. the Shelby has a $5k ADM....The ZL1 has cash back apparently.

[drew peacock]

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=101437

another one lol

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

have production #'s for the ZL1? Is GM just cranking them out? are there several ZL1's sitting at your local dealership? There is one at the dealerhsip near me, just like there is one Shelby. the Shelby has a $5k ADM....The ZL1 has cash back apparently.

swing by stingray chevy in plant city.last time i was there they had 2-3 ZL-1s,a COPO on the showroom floor and more vettes than god hisself.not to mention the SS camaros.even a few mustang trade ins.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

There is a reason Chevy offers discounts on the ZL1 to sell them. There is a reason Ford doesn't with the Shelby . It's the same reason why comparing used 2013 models the ZL1s value is nearly 25% less even though the msrp were similar. Its probably the same reason that almost every review of the ZL1 vs GT350r the conclusion was they preferred the Shelby.

Your argument is not valid. If that was the case then why is Ford always dropping the price of the GT down by thousands of dollars? I mean, Ford has no issue selling them. Right? So why for the past 3 years have people been bragging about how the were getting GTs that MSRP in the low $30K range for high $20K? And not just base models. Premiums, GTPPs...everytime someone asks how much they should pay you get at least 10 people telling him that they should drop the price by $5K-$10K. Whats up with that?

Although you and other fanboys like to fantasize that GM is just struggling to move ZL1s and that they're all just sitting on lots rusting and nobody wants them and GM is losing tons of money on them, I assure you that it is all just a fantasy of yours. Many of us paid MSRP and got rebates for our ZL1s and would have bought them even without the rebates. Fact is that GM is offering these prices not because it isn't selling but because they want to make it more appealing to people who might be shopping for a Vette or a SS. Or even for a Shelby. Why by a lesser performing GT350 non-R when a better performing ZL1 is virtually the same price? And if anything look at every car in the same price range as the ZL1. If you wanted a car strictly for the performance capabilities then you would pick the ZL1 hands down over anything else.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

swing by stingray chevy in plant city.last time i was there they had 2-3 ZL-1s,a COPO on the showroom floor and more vettes than god hisself.not to mention the SS camaros.even a few mustang trade ins.

Yet there are people in some parts of the country who are looking for ZL1s. You can't look at 1 facility and determine that a car isn't selling.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

There is a reason Chevy offers discounts on the ZL1 to sell them. There is a reason Ford doesn't with the Shelby . It's the same reason why comparing used 2013 models the ZL1s value is nearly 25% less even though the msrp were similar. Its probably the same reason that almost every review of the ZL1 vs GT350r the conclusion was they preferred the Shelby.

It may say Shelby on the car, but from all the engine issues and replacement engines, I would not want to own one after warranty is up. Even with warranty I would be worried. Just way to many for a low production car, even thos with coolers are going boom.