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Old 05-16-2019, 12:42 PM   #99
GuywithL86
 
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Not worry at all about that car competing with our Camaro. The new Supra wouldn't even come close to the previous MKIV Supra which was an icon.
New one is underpowered, ugly looking and not even would have the Toyota reliability because main components are BMW.

this is incorrect on so many levels. It's faster than the camaro to 60, so not sure how it's underpowered. I already stated above it's rated low, but that should be obvious by the acceleration.


The supra was an icon mostly because it's reliable and the shortblock can handle boatloads of boost. Well the bmw straight 6 can handle boatloads if boost as well, very similar to the supras numbers.
(edit:ok I was not aware people have 800-1000whp supras on stock shortblocks, that's freaking nuts. I thought it was more like 600-700whp)


Unreliable you say, the entire engine was given to toyota a few years ago. Toyota practically reverse engineered it and stress tested every single nut and bolt and had bmw make the changes. This same engine was released in the 2016 model year on bmw's and literally nobody is having reliability issues. The only semi-common issue is some coolant leaking into the turbos, and toyota used different turbos on the supra.

Toyota has gone over every single piece supplied by bmw to ensure it meets their standards.

Am I going to buy a supra? no
Is it awesome? yes

What is not to love about german engineering dissected and reworked for reliability by japanese engineering. It's like the greatest combo ever.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:49 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by GuywithL86 View Post
this is incorrect on so many levels. It's faster than the camaro to 60, so not sure how it's underpowered. I already stated above it's rated low, but that should be obvious by the acceleration.


The supra was an icon mostly because it's reliable and the shortblock can handle boatloads of boost. Well the bmw straight 6 can handle boatloads if boost as well, very similar to the supras numbers.

Unreliable you say, the entire engine was given to toyota a few years ago. Toyota practically reverse engineered it and stress tested every single nut and bolt and had bmw make the changes. This same engine was released in the 2016 model year on bmw's and literally nobody is having reliability issues. The only semi-common issue is some coolant leaking into the turbos, and toyota used different turbos on the supra.

Toyota has gone over every single piece supplied by bmw to ensure it meets their standards.

Am I going to buy a supra? no
Is it awesome? yes

What is not to love about german engineering dissected and reworked for reliability by japanese engineering. It's like the greatest combo ever.
It may be a fine combo, but it looks like a new version of Mr. Potatohead where you crudely stick car parts on a fish.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:02 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by GuywithL86 View Post
this is incorrect on so many levels. It's faster than the camaro to 60, so not sure how it's underpowered. I already stated above it's rated low, but that should be obvious by the acceleration.
Except it's not faster. It's about the same 0-60. C/D has it doing a 3.8 0-60 but they are the only ones and they commonly have 0-60 times that are optimistic. Everyone else has 4.1.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:04 PM   #102
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Except it's not faster. It's about the same 0-60. C/D has it doing a 3.8 0-60 but they are the only ones and they commonly have 0-60 times that are optimistic. Everyone else has 4.1.
So does that make the Camaro underpowered?
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:21 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by GuywithL86 View Post
this is incorrect on so many levels. It's faster than the camaro to 60, so not sure how it's underpowered. I already stated above it's rated low, but that should be obvious by the acceleration.


The supra was an icon mostly because it's reliable and the shortblock can handle boatloads of boost. Well the bmw straight 6 can handle boatloads if boost as well, very similar to the supras numbers.
(edit:ok I was not aware people have 800-1000whp supras on stock shortblocks, that's freaking nuts. I thought it was more like 600-700whp)


Unreliable you say, the entire engine was given to toyota a few years ago. Toyota practically reverse engineered it and stress tested every single nut and bolt and had bmw make the changes. This same engine was released in the 2016 model year on bmw's and literally nobody is having reliability issues. The only semi-common issue is some coolant leaking into the turbos, and toyota used different turbos on the supra.

Toyota has gone over every single piece supplied by bmw to ensure it meets their standards.

Am I going to buy a supra? no
Is it awesome? yes

What is not to love about german engineering dissected and reworked for reliability by japanese engineering. It's like the greatest combo ever.
The Camaro SS is actually pretty even on the 0-60 time, driver dependant. (They both range from 3.8-4.1 seconds).

As far as German engineering? I own a German car and have owned a few. Reliability doesn't go hand in hand with German cars, unfortunately.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:41 PM   #104
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Except it's not faster. It's about the same 0-60. C/D has it doing a 3.8 0-60 but they are the only ones and they commonly have 0-60 times that are optimistic. Everyone else has 4.1.
I know, it was literally faster in one test

But still, somebody somewhere was capable of making it beat the best times of a camaro ss auto. even if it was only once. It atleast means you can’t consider it underpowered. I am aware what an auto camaro ss feels like 0-60, and it’s a monster. The fact that this supra is in that ballpark is amazing.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:44 PM   #105
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As far as German engineering? I own a German car and have owned a few. Reliability doesn't go hand in hand with German cars, unfortunately.
I am fully aware of that, which is why I was making a point that it’s german engineering with japanese reliability. Cannot ask for a better combo

German cars used to be some of the most reliable cars you could buy. Started going downhill with obd1
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:03 PM   #106
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Ok, so if the SS and Supra have near identical acceleration and grip...

SS dynos around 405 wheel hp and weighs about 3700 lb = 9.136 lb/hp

We know the Supra weighs about 3375 lbs, to get 9.136 lb/hp takes 369 hp AT THE WHEELS.

Toyota isn't just understating their hp #s by a little, this is ridiculous. I think the car mfg'ers should be required to submit to SAE testing if they will sell cars in the US...

Recently I had a "335 hp" Audi A6 with the 3.0T engine keep up with me until the top of 2nd gear in my SS 1LE. WTF? Even with DCT and AWD I should have easily pulled away, but I had a only a couple car lengths at the top of 2nd.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:11 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by DaveC113 View Post
Ok, so if the SS and Supra have near identical acceleration and grip...

SS dynos around 405 wheel hp and weighs about 3700 lb = 9.136 lb/hp

We know the Supra weighs about 3375 lbs, to get 9.136 lb/hp takes 369 hp AT THE WHEELS.

Toyota isn't just understating their hp #s by a little, this is ridiculous. I think the car mfg'ers should be required to submit to SAE testing if they will sell cars in the US...

Recently I had a "335 hp" Audi A6 with the 3.0T engine keep up with me until the top of 2nd gear in my SS 1LE. WTF? Even with DCT and AWD I should have easily pulled away, but I had a only a couple car lengths at the top of 2nd.
I know an Audi guy and he dumped TONS of $$$ into his car to make it faster. It looks stock, though. I imagine he is not the only one.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:43 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by DaveC113 View Post
Ok, so if the SS and Supra have near identical acceleration and grip...

SS dynos around 405 wheel hp and weighs about 3700 lb = 9.136 lb/hp

We know the Supra weighs about 3375 lbs, to get 9.136 lb/hp takes 369 hp AT THE WHEELS.

Toyota isn't just understating their hp #s by a little, this is ridiculous. I think the car mfg'ers should be required to submit to SAE testing if they will sell cars in the US...


That's what I'm saying, they are so underrated.


So upon further research check this out.

The bmw x3 m40i is listed at bmw to make 355hp. It's pretty much the same engine in the supra, maybe with some minor tweaks


Well Dinan dyno'd the car at the wheels and on the crank.


Damn thing made 445hp/440trq @ the crank
355hp/369trq @ the wheels.


x3 m40i performance data for reference



4308 lb
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 11.2 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 21.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.3 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.0 sec @ 107 mph
Top speed (governor limited, C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 158 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.85 g
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:05 PM   #109
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and here's the crazy part, the current gen m3 only makes about 380 to the wheels. It's rated at 425hp crank

So if you factor in that the x3 m40i makes 355whp with awd, and the m3 makes 380whp with rwd, the have about the same amount of hp at the crank. So bmw didn't underrate the m3 it seems.

these new b58 motors in anything bmw 40i and the new supra are just bonkers
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:10 PM   #110
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So does that make the Camaro underpowered?
Yes, a 6.2L V8/455hp/3700lb car is the definition of under powered.

The Supra is a moot point for me anyway. It starts at $50K for a base. I paid $17K less than that for my 1SS. Not even in the same ball park price wise.......but they are performance wise.
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:33 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by GuywithL86 View Post
and here's the crazy part, the current gen m3 only makes about 380 to the wheels. It's rated at 425hp crank


So if you factor in that the x3 m40i makes 355whp with awd, and the m3 makes 380whp with rwd, the have about the same amount of hp at the crank
Bingo

Also the reason these cars have already been stated as running on the level of the M2 Competitions and in some cases even better (3350 lbs compared to 3600 lbs). This car also beats up a regular M2 without much issue so that kind of gives you an idea of where its at.

Honestly I'm ordering one (not a Launch but a 3.0 Premium in DownShift Blue) and It might take every bit of my ability but I really think I can hit that magic high 11 sec 1/4 mile (stock with DR) with the car just like I was able to do with my DR only all else stock auto 6th gen SS.

I'm not buying the new Supra to be a drag/strait-line bully (I'm keeping the SS for that) more road racing/auto X/grand touring ...... but it was a VERY pleasant surprise to see that this new Supra is in fact just about even with my 8 spd auto SS 6th gen (when it was stock anyway lol) I was not expecting that out of the gate so I'm definitely happy.

I'm calling it now (ohwell if I end up wrong) these A90 Supras will be putting down in the neighborhood of 500+ rwhp with Full Bolt Ons/E85 and a bit more on Meth stock turbo. That power in a 50/50 3350 lbs 2 seat coupe with an active diff will be an absolute riot to drive.

Plus the A90 Supra has the ZF 8HP vs the 8L90 in 6th gen SS ... I don't mind my 8L90 now that its tuned its pretty good actually but the ZF is a WAYYYY better auto in every way.

Like the new A90 or not .... we should all (as performance enthusiasts) be very happy Toyota did this as its another major player in a market segment that is dying out and the return of a major nameplate (mabey Mazda will nut up and bring back the Rx7 now).
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:50 PM   #112
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Bingo

Also the reason these cars have already been stated as running on the level of the M2 Competitions and in some cases even better (3350 lbs compared to 3600 lbs). This car also beats up a regular M2 without much issue so that kind of gives you an idea of where its at.

Honestly I'm ordering one (not a Launch but a 3.0 Premium in DownShift Blue) and It might take every bit of my ability but I really think I can hit that magic high 11 sec 1/4 mile (stock with DR) with the car just like I was able to do with my DR only all else stock auto 6th gen SS.

I'm not buying the new Supra to be a drag/strait-line bully (I'm keeping the SS for that) more road racing/auto X/grand touring ...... but it was a VERY pleasant surprise to see that this new Supra is in fact just about even with my 8 spd auto SS 6th gen (when it was stock anyway lol) I was not expecting that out of the gate so I'm definitely happy.

I'm calling it now (ohwell if I end up wrong) these A90 Supras will be putting down in the neighborhood of 500+ rwhp with Full Bolt Ons/E85 and a bit more on Meth stock turbo. That power in a 50/50 3350 lbs 2 seat coupe with an active diff will be an absolute riot to drive.

Plus the A90 Supra has the ZF 8HP vs the 8L90 in 6th gen SS ... I don't mind my 8L90 now that its tuned its pretty good actually but the ZF is a WAYYYY better auto in every way.

Like the new A90 or not .... we should all (as performance enthusiasts) be very happy Toyota did this as its another major player in a market segment that is dying out and the return of a major nameplate (mabey Mazda will nut up and bring back the Rx7 now).

The b58 power is well documented. It's literally the same motor as the 2016+ bmw 340i, but with minor upgrades (I believe slightly bigger turbos on the supra)


So no need to guess, just head over the the bmw boards. The stock long block record right now is about 650whp I believe. But it just came out in 2016 so they have some discovering to do.


I'm most impressed by the handling. The supra on non super tires pulled 1.07g's on the skidpad. A camaro SS is like .98 g's. An ss 1le is either 1.05 or 1.09 according to the publication.


A 2018 porsche gt3 with pilot sport cup 2's is 1.08 g's.


Unbelievably it seems like it matches ss 1le performance.


There's only one issue I have with the supra, it's that I can go out and buy an ss 1le and have enough money left over for heads/cam, and a vacation.
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